I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things

[SkepticThinker]

We were designed to have freedom of the will.
I guess you might prefer to be a robot.

But this life is a test.

I see claims but no evidence.

If I designed a bunch of stuff that didn't work as intended, would you say I'm a good designer, or a bad one?
Oh, and let's imagine I messed up my design so badly that I had to completely destroy it and start all over again. Am I a good designer, or a not-so-good designer?

 

[dybmh]

The simple truth is a rapist has no convience and doesn't care about the law no matter how many times it repeated in the past

A fair point. In that case, the Hebrew bible does not permit rape. It prohibits it, and criminals are criminals.

The point is murdering en mass is mass.murder. You may excuse it for whatever reason. I don't.

If one believes the bible stoires, the killing isn't murder, it's justified. If one doesn't believe the bible stories, then the whole issue is irrelevant, because it's not true. If someone cherry picks the bad, and ignores the good, that's faulty logic.

Do they?

Yes. The most dibilitating chronic conditions are rare. Childhood cancers are rare. Medical advancements exist and are ongoing. The good overwhelms the bad.

Interesting you onow what your god sees here

That is what's written. God saw it was good, 7 times in Gen 1. The last statement says it saw that it was "very good". That's what's written. It's not me. I'm just going by the story. If we want to throw out the story, that's perfectly fine. But that means it can't be used to argue that God is evil.

Not good with figures are you?

Hee. Evidentally not.

That would be tens of thousands

Sure. So even better to show that yes, a food company would produce a food that is dangerous for many but feeds most and is not considered immoral in any way.

 

[Wildswanderer]

I see claims but no evidence.

If I designed a bunch of stuff that didn't work as intended, would you say I'm a good designer, or a bad one?
Oh, and let's imagine I messed up my design so badly that I had to completely destroy it and start all over again. Am I a good designer, or a not-so-good designer?

All I see are a lot of assumptions about how God operates.
His design didn't fail... because whosover will can choose the right path.

 

[ChristineM]

A fair point. In that case, the Hebrew bible does not permit rape. It prohibits it, and criminals are criminals.

So does the modern law (certainly in civilised countries.

If one believes the bible stoires, the killing isn't murder, it's justified. If one doesn't believe the bible stories, then the whole issue is irrelevant, because it's not true. If someone cherry picks the bad, and ignores the good, that's faulty logic.

Killing is never justified.

Yes. The most dibilitating chronic conditions are rare. Childhood cancers are rare. Medical advancements exist and are ongoing. The good overwhelms the bad.

They exist

Sure. So even better to show that yes, a food company would produce a food that is dangerous for many but feeds most and is not considered immoral in any way.

I see no point in continuing, shaking head while quietly withdrawing

 

[dybmh]

So does the modern law (certainly in civilised countries.

Yes!

Killing is never justified.

Seriously? Never? I'm sure I can come up with examples that show this isn't true.

They exist

Confirmed, you are ignoring the vast majority of good things, focusing on the minority of bad things in order judge God as evil.

I see no point in continuing, shaking head while quietly withdrawing

Of course. That's because I've shown that the negative judgement against God requires ignoring many things. Ignoring what's written in the bible, both the story itself, and the details of the law which prohibit things like rape. Also ignoring the vast majority of healthy people and instead focusing on the rare illnesses and chronic conditions. it makes sense to end the debate, because there is no real justification of your position.

 

[ChristineM]

]

Of course. That's because I've shown that the negative judgement against God requires ignoring many things. Ignoring what's written in the bible, both the story itself, and the details of the law which prohibit things like rape. Also ignoring the vast majority of healthy people and instead focusing on the rare illnesses and chronic conditions. it makes sense to end the debate, because there is no real justification of your position.

If thats what makes you happy..

I have read the bible, several of them, its what drove me away from Christianity. If my position were not justified i would not hold it. You are free to believe whatever you want but don't try telling me, who you have no idea of my life that my choice is not justified.

 

[Madmogwai]

In Christianity, you have to love and worship God in order to avoid Satan.

In your analogy, it is as if you created a robot capable of torturing people, and the only way to escape an eternity with it and go to a paradise is to love and worship you.

So we are forced to worship.
God gives us free will then creates Satan to test us, this forces people to follow God out of fear.
To create fear which punished us for exercising our God given free will is disgusting.
If I have to terrorise my children to make them love me then I am not a worthy Father to my children.

 

[Madmogwai]

Or, one could just as well say that God did not create Zlatan. One could say that God “created” free will and Zlatan’s use of theirs was what “created” (resulted in) Zlatan.

Sorry - satan.

Humbly,
Hermit

We are given free will then punished for using it

 

[Madmogwai]

Who/what stands in judgment of God, and by what right?

And if it's you, then why are you allowing some ancient scribe to define what God does? Why not define that for yourself, sine you feel you can stand in such judgment. In which case evil would be man's doing, not God's, wouldn't it? All God did was give us free will.

If we have free will why are we punished for not following God, if we had true freedom we would not be punished.

 

[Madmogwai]

Are we talking about Buddha? Why would buddhists be concerned about it if death is not real as they seem to say.

What if there is no such thing as Satan's deeds? What if everything is just as Buddha has ordained?

If God created Buddha then surely that gives God a free pass.

Obviously I’m speaking about the beliefs of the Abrahamic Religions.
Buddhist’s or not I can question things.

 

[Madmogwai]

You and I both. I feel we were fortunate to escape the snares of Christianity and its scaremongering tactics of fearing a supposedly merciful, just, and loving God. As a former Christian, I now have my doubts about whether the biblical God exists. Whether he exists or not, I think he's portrayed in the Bible and even by some Christians as being about as loving and merciful as a deadly king cobra.

One chapter he is loving and forgiving, in another he is a jealous and merciless God.

 

[Hermit Philosopher]

We are given free will then punished for using it

You reap what you sow, rather.

 

[Madmogwai]

Because Satan isn't doing what God created him to do.

So God failed when he created Satan, odd that a perfect God would fail.

 

[dybmh]

]


If thats what makes you happy..

I have read the bible, several of them, its what drove me away from Christianity. If my position were not justified i would not hold it. You are free to believe whatever you want but don't try telling me, who you have no idea of my life that my choice is not justified.

If the judgement is based on your life experience, that is certainly justified. Using the bible to do so, doesn't work. Using one sided statistics doesn't work.

 

[ChristineM]

So God failed when he created Satan, odd that a perfect God would fail.

For a perfect, omni everything creator god it seem that he failed quite a lot.

 

[Madmogwai]

You reap what you sow, rather.

I am placed on the ground with numerous paths to choose from.
I exercise my God given free will and choose a path of my liking.
God the punishes me for not taking his path.
Not exactly free will is it.

 

[ChristineM]

If the judgement is based on your life experience, that is certainly justified. Using the bible to do so, doesn't work. Using one sided statistics doesn't work.

Have you read a bible? Any bible, there are hundreds of versions, all different.

Here it a one sided statistic for you.



I use both the bible which is a horribly violent book and life experiences.

 

[InChrist]

So we are forced to worship.
God gives us free will then creates Satan to test us, this forces people to follow God out of fear.
To create fear which punished us for exercising our God given free will is disgusting.
If I have to terrorise my children to make them love me then I am not a worthy Father to my children.

It’s not about fear at all, rather giving every person a free and legitimate choice. God is Love, yet without real choice there is no possibility of real love.


“Not only skeptics and atheists but also many who call themselves Christians often complain, “Why didn’t God make a perfect world without sin, suffering, or death? If He is all-powerful, surely He could have done that if He had so desired!” This common protest rests upon a very simple misunderstanding: the failure to recognize that God has given to all mankind the power of choice. It is self-evident that without this universal ability we could neither love God, nor one another, nor receive love—and compared with faith and hope, love is the “greatest” (1 Cor:13:13
). Nor is it a question of God’s power. Love is a choice that must come from the heart; therefore, even God, with His infinite power, cannot force anyone to love Him or it would not be love. Choosing to love self and this world, instead of the God of infinite love who created us, is clearly the cause of all evil.”


It Had to Be

 

[Madmogwai]

It’s not about fear at all, rather giving every person a free and legitimate choice. God is Love, yet without real choice there is no possibility of real love.


“Not only skeptics and atheists but also many who call themselves Christians often complain, “Why didn’t God make a perfect world without sin, suffering, or death? If He is all-powerful, surely He could have done that if He had so desired!” This common protest rests upon a very simple misunderstanding: the failure to recognize that God has given to all mankind the power of choice. It is self-evident that without this universal ability we could neither love God, nor one another, nor receive love—and compared with faith and hope, love is the “greatest” (1 Cor:13:13
). Nor is it a question of God’s power. Love is a choice that must come from the heart; therefore, even God, with His infinite power, cannot force anyone to love Him or it would not be love. Choosing to love self and this world, instead of the God of infinite love who created us, is clearly the cause of all evil.”


It Had to Be

So why punish people for exercising their free will and not following.
If your threatened with Hell, that is absolutely using fear to reign you in.

 

[InChrist]

I am placed on the ground with numerous paths to choose from.
I exercise my God given free will and choose a path of my liking.
God the punishes me for not taking his path.
Not exactly free will is it.

That might be a valid argument…if there were other paths. If not, then it’s a nonsensical argument which fails. According to the biblical scriptures, there is only One Creator God, the only Source of all life, love, beauty, goodness, etc. So if this revelation of God is correct, then any other choice is worthless, lifeless, hopeless, and foolish.
I don’t even think it’s God who punishes, since the scriptures state God does not desire to see anyone perish. God’s heart is that all would choose an eternal life of love, joy, peace, creativity and beauty with Him. Those that reject such a destiny will suffer their own loneliness, eternal loss and self-inflicted punishment.