Why Didn't the Universe Always Exist?

[David Davidovich]

If time began with the universe then the universe would have always have existed. In that case the phrase "before the Big Bang" would be as meaningless as north of the North Pole.

I'm sorry, but I don't understand your logic.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I'm sorry, but I don't understand your logic.

Can you go north of the North Pole?

 

[MonkeyFire]

But how could that even be possible if God is outside of time?

God is outside of finite time, but not eternity.

 

[David Davidovich]

Are you sure about that? Instead of 3.8 did you mean 13.8?

Yes, that was a typo. I had previously written 13.8 billion years in other posts.

When making such claims it is best to find sources that support your claims. Not all Abrahamic religions read Genesis literally. Some of them do realize that it is myth. In fact worldwide most Christians seem to accept the 13.8 billion year age of the universe and evolution as well. But yes, some fundamentalist sects, far too many of them in America, go by a 6,000 year date. We have trees older than that.

I am aware of that, however, I was particularly looking for the participation of those who had the belief in an eternal God outside of time who created a finite universe. However, even with those who accept the 13.8-billion-year earth age along with evolution, they also believe it was all jump started by God, thus a form of creation or 'making.' Plus, as in your quote, I had mentioned those who had the belief of 6000 years who would also be considered part of the Abrahamic religions.

 

[David Davidovich]

That answer from authority is unfortunately from bad authorities. Gotquestions are you kidding someone. Its position in the search engine doesn't make it more informative than cult brainwashing that it reflects Why not give a reference from Jim Jones or from Benny Hinn? Same same.

You brought up the universe and God in your OP. Transcendence is a divine attribute according to classical western philosophy. Time must be part of or inside of God. This is an interpretation of first cause. Although I think the term 'First cause' is confusing here is an example that shows transcendence is a prominent feature: Divine Simplicity | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy

No wonder my thread got transferred to Science and Religion. (Just joking.)

 

[David Davidovich]

Well those beliefs are incorrect, the universe came into existence around 13.8 (or was your 3.8 a typo?) billion years ago.

And earth coalesced around 4.55 billion years ago.

There are hypothesis that say our universe is cyclic, i.e. big bang, inflate, contract, big crunch, big bang... and on and on for ever. Professor Penrose did follow this belief but had now dumped the idea in favour of the current BB model.

There are hypothesis that claim a steady state universe for ever, now debunked.

There are hypothesis that say our universe was sporned from an other universe. The hypothesis by Dr Mersini-Houghton is the one i favour.

There is one hypothesis that says there are 10^10^16 universes that we could recognise as universe's and more than that number of universes that we could not recognise or even comprehend.

This is not my belief but takes your point and runs with it. Assuming a god exists (no hypothesis makes such an assumption). And said god is omni everything then there is no reason that said god could have made this universe at any time. Perhaps the other megaillions of universes proposed by professor André Linde are failed trial runs. Perhaps our own universe is also considered a failure and said god continues creating universes in the hope of creating perfection.

Well, something's off other than just taking the Bible account as the one and only authority on the matter and/or one's faith group's interpretation or perspective of said Bible account. Because just only the simple point of how ginormous the universe is (and is still expanding - and for what reason?), something just doesn't add up. And even though theist say that this reflects the glory, the complexity, and the incomprehensibleness of God... I will say that it is very easy to see how a theist could postulate such a belief.

 

[rational experiences]

As the eternal was not alight.

There is no science proof. As you use science terms as light and outside of light is space nothing.... darkness.

Eternal word explanation. Just a story. Said it always existed. Space proves it hadn't. As man removing mass makes a hole of sin..sink hole.

Always existed still exists means it now owns a hole in its body. What now doesn't exist themed Eternal hell. Created creation. As exerted outside pressure to own space as a hole is owning a body that was removed by burning. To be hole plus mass.

Ask a human why they told the story. God O inherited creation?
No man is God O?

As father mother entered life after the body garden nature. After animals.

Where emptiness infinity had separated God O from the eternal. First thought about human science concept is in creation.

On the flat space plane a hole gases in density filled stretched out to be gases as first heavens.

Not alight.

Alight sun mass density stretching <> pushed sideways by heavens presence into the eternal body.

Story said whilst in creation to give answer how I was forced to leave spirit.

Man's form once a larger eternal being but smaller than the origin Eternal being entered heavens life first.

Pressure converted his being into human biology trapping water mass within. Another proof as waters mass is a pressurised body. We own it inside biology so had to be greater than.

Mother came out after him.

No science theist or machine baby man the inventor of machine existed.

Baby man put machine in between his natural human man's memory of father mother.

His machine in the past he built from gods mass dusts. Became mind possessed by his God. A mechanical law of man's science as mechanics the machine.

It's why today he theoried a machine transmitting could create bio life first then open into his invented mechanics as gods power beyond biology body. The machine.

So I remind him only human sex owns his life baby man.

 

[David Davidovich]

That, obviously, is a question that only He can answer. Certainly the quote of "in the fulness of time" has been used or, as you said, "until the 'time' was right".

 

[David Davidovich]

Just a correction for the Jewish part of what you stated, you statement is not correct.

There is no "Jewish" beleif that is conclusive that the universe came into existance 3.8 billion years ago.

There are a number of different views and calculations that have existed in Jewish history as a way of "speculating" at the age of the universe, "as we know it." (One of which is about 15 to 20 billion, but it is one of several speculative calculations which are not meant to be definative to the point where all Torath Mosheh hold by those particular numbers)

Since none of them are considered to be definative answers the Torath Mosheh position is - whatever number is proven to be "true" or correct based on repeatable results is what we go by. In the absense of a proven number there is nothing wrong with speculation. Yet, again it is only speculation on reality as we know it, not what is beyond what any human would know.

The 3.8 was a typo. I meant to say 13.8, which happens to be closer to your 15 to 20 billion speculation. And yes, I did watch your video about this, and I will admit that it was interesting..

 

[dybmh]

I see. Well, I know that the Jews believe in the end of the current world order and the coming of mashiach, along with the coming of the olam ha-ba, therefore, are you saying that this situation has always occurred and is still occurring and will always be occurring indefinitely?

According to the premise in the OP, from God's perspective, 100% yes. And it gets weirder when we start to consider not just what was, is, and will be... and start to consider what could be. All of those "could be" events exist concurrently as well. The result is a set of many worlds, many realities, and all of them are leading to "the world to come".

And what about Hebrew text verses such as Isaiah 65:17? Or do those ancient end times/new world Hebrew texts only have an ancient Jewish fulfillment/application and not a modern day one?

Well. I believe they're true and will be fulfilled. From our perspective, in the timeline, in our singular existence, these things will happen eventually.... or maybe tomorrow, who knows?

Well, at least that's a convenient answer.

Why the sad face? It's not a convenient answer, it's perfectly valid answer to the question. God can easily be understood as the author, we are characters in the story, everthing that exists, and doesn't exist, and might exist are all characters in the story.

Each character has properties, those properties are themselves elements in the story.

 

[David Davidovich]

Can you go north of the North Pole?

Oh, I see.

 

[David Davidovich]

Theists or Christians? Even the Torah begins with "In A beginning".

It does? Could someone who is Jewish confirm or deny if the Torah says this?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Oh, I see.

Ibn other words, if time began when the universe began then the universe has existed forever. There may be no "before the Big Bang". It may be a nonsensical question. It may not be. Right now the best answer is "We don't know yet."

 

[David Davidovich]

"How could God have used a point in time to start creation."
Humans use time to point to this event that or the other. The term a point in time is just a human reference to when God may have done a certain thing - our entire being is based on time - our daily lives are based on time - so we have a tendency to use time as a reference.

Why didn't the universe always exist - there is one scientist who claims there was a universe before this one
There was a universe before ours, says Nobel laureate Roger Penrose: Report
There are those who said the universe had no beginning - it existed before the Big bang singularity
The universe has no beginning: physicists refute the Big Bang theory

Who can say that there isn't more than one universe (there are three heavens spoken of by Paul) in this infinite space. Universes created by God prior to this one. Man can only observe 400 billion plus light years away, past that he can't see anything (so they say)
What's written in Scripture is written for man, for earthlings.

But written by whom? Also, would you say that the observable 400 billion plus light years away was created for humankind?

 

[David Davidovich]

According to the premise in the OP, from God's perspective, 100% yes. And it gets weirder when we start to consider not just what was, is, and will be... and start to consider what could be. All of those "could be" events exist concurrently as well. The result is a set of many worlds, many realities, and all of them are leading to "the world to come".

So, what would even be the point of "could be" events? Also, do you have a Hebrew text verse that you base your belief on?

Well. I believe they're true and will be fulfilled. From our perspective, in the timeline, in our singular existence, these things will happen eventually.... or maybe tomorrow, who knows?

But yet, God is the one who entertains multiverse possibilities in his mind.

 

[David Davidovich]

Ibn other words, if time began when the universe began then the universe has existed forever. There may be no "before the Big Bang". It may be a nonsensical question. It may not be. Right now the best answer is "We don't know yet."

However though, we do know what latitude direction on planet earth to go in, if we want to go North.

 

[shunyadragon]

There is no reason both God and time can't be eternal. Perhaps they are manifestations of one another. Perhaps one is eternal and created the other to exist eternally.

There are countless possibilities here.

I believe the nature of our physical existence is a reflection of the attributes of God. As long as God exists the attributes of God exist.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

It does? Could someone who is Jewish confirm or deny if the Torah says this?

This may either help, or confuse you.

There are some ancient Jewish sources that state that during Day One, not first day as is sometimes mistranslated, there were numerous realities that existed, ran their course, and then ceased over and over again until our current reality was established.

 

[dybmh]

So, what would even be the point of "could be" events?

free-will

Also, do you have a Hebrew text verse that you base your belief on?

Here's one:

Psalms 90:2

Before the mountains were brought forth, before you had formed the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting, you are God.
​

God is beyond time, before creation, before time, from everlasting to everlasting God is, was, and will be.

But yet, God is the one who entertains multiverse possibilities in his mind.

Sure. Why not? The beginning and the end are defined, and what happens in the middle is the result of what "could be".

 

[rational experiences]

Man says when I theoried about God I don't exist in any type of lifes life form or supported life form or the types of presences that life forms are supported by.

Topic God.

Man says but that's where I begin.
Answer is the same no that's where you end. Begin end same answer.

Same answer. Sane. Next moment beyond the thought same.