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Abiogenisis

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
If science cannot discover a possible way that genes managed to become an information storage and using system, that could be a reason to say that the whole genetic system had to be designed to work and information needed to be installed initially.
Well that's certainly the reason creationists focus on abiogenesis so much. They're hoping like hell that scientists won't figure it out, so they can continue to use the gap in our knowledge as a justification for their beliefs in gods.

Seems rather risky to me. After all, if a gap in our knowledge = gods, then logically gaps being filled = no gods.

I guess science does not say something like that because science is not designed to see that sort of stuff, only humans are, and especially humans who have faith in the existence of a creator God. Science would go on forever trying to figure it out, because that is all science can do, and those who believe in science or verified evidence and dismiss faith would go along with it................ religiously.
Go along with what? If it remains an unsolved mystery for my lifetime, that wouldn't surprise me. History shows that sometimes there are hundreds of years between major scientific advancements.

Why would it be unlikely that the conclusion might be wrong because science cannot see or study spirits, which could be a prime ingredient for life?
Because I'm not aware of any empirical evidence for any sort of "spirit". I'm not even sure there's a consistent, meaningful definition for such a thing.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Well if that is so, why are you guys so reluctant to admit that evolutionary processes are by chance, like the paths of rivers?
In my many decades of debating creationist thinking the well educated have to be very careful with word use and definitions. These Christians are deceptive and dishonest in using certain words and definitions, and one of these words is "chance". Christians use their own distorted meaning, and will interject their meanings at times when it isn't appropriate.

These debates are seldom about well educated people illuminating each other on the latest finding of science. It is the well educated correcting the disinformation and deceptive thinking of religious people. We critical thinkers are well aware of what is happening here, the religious don't seem to be. This suggests self-deception on the part of the religious.

A stream is going to follow a path of least resistance. If by chance there is a cold winter, and by chance a lot of snowfall, and by chance a sudden melting of snow come spring, there will be vastly more water flowing down mountains, and the increase in this water can mean flooding of streams and rivers, and this can mean a change in the paths they take. This was not a plan, or goal. This is just the circumstances of nature due to abnormal patterns of the weather which were deviations due to chance. This happens all the time in nature because nature is dynamic and subject to changes.

It's not us believers that have the problem, evidently.
We say chance. You go... "Uh UH." Then you go, "uh huh."
You theists keep trying to force in plans, goals, and design into what we observe, and distorting that chance is a set of limited options that can result in dramatic changes. You keep trying to find a place for your gods. We well educated understand that chance just means there were some natural options, but you believers want to define whatever happened as a divine chance of the god lottery. We then correct your error.
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
Well if that is so, why are you guys so reluctant to admit that evolutionary processes are by chance, like the paths of rivers?
Because it's not accurate. Duh.

Trying to explain basic science to a Jehovah's Witness.....

fml-sylvester.gif
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
People have experienced God in the past and now it is implausible that God exists. OK, that's an opinion.

The opinion is that what they experienced was a god. There is insufficient support to justify that assumption.

Not without evidence, just without verifiable evidence.

Evidence is examined and interpreted, not verified. Conclusions are verified if the reasoning connecting them to the evidence is fallacy-free.

The scientific evidence, what our physical senses tell us, is about the physical and not about the spiritual.

If the spiritual cannot impact experience (our senses), why even think about it? If it could, that would be the evidence for it, and it could be studied. There is no spiritual realm to our knowledge, just this realm in which we can have endogenous spiritual experiences. Our minds inform us of what we find spiritual, which is synonymous to that which makes us feel good, connected, a sense of belonging (cf. alienation), and some combination of awe, value (love), gratitude, and mystery. When it generates that conscious experience, we call it a spiritual experience. It is closely related to other experiences the brain generates, such as what we consider beautiful or funny. Unseen mechanisms process our apprehensions and tell us not just what they imply about reality (memory), but also how we feel about them. Your mind hears or reads a joke, determines that it is a joke, and after that, whether your funny-meter liked it. The spiritual experience is similar.

Notice that I don't include spirits anywhere in this, nor a spiritual realm. There is nothing spiritual about either of those. Such ideas are an unfortunate detour man has taken with the Abrahamic religions, which have anthropomorphized that spiritual intuition (called it God) and removed it from nature.

Humans can see beyond science and know there are other possibilities outside of the scientific sphere.

There is nothing that humans that are not scientists can see not visible to scientists, who are also human.

Yes in science that cannot study or see or test spiritual things, Gods are irrelevant.

Spiritual things are irrelevant if they can't be studied, which means that same thing as being not evident to the senses. Personally, I am only interested in things that can affect my conscious experience, and anything that can do that is evidence as soon as it does.

Are you saying that science has shown that life and consciousness are chemical based?

Life is. Consciousness probably originates at a much smaller scale than molecules, where there are no chemical reactions.

Looking at the idea of inanimate, unconscious matter becoming conscious one day sounds like magic to me.

But matter isn't inanimate except perhaps at absolute zero, and I'll bet there's movement even then according to the Heisenberg uncertainty principle.

you say God does not exist because God has no evidence.

That is not the position of the agnostic atheist. Why is this so difficult for so many theists to assimilate? There's a place between belief and disbelief called agnosticism, which we can call unbelief. It is different from disbelief. Can you not imagine having no opinion about the truth status of a statement? Maybe an analogy will help - trust. There are those who we have known long enough to have trusted and been correct that they were trustworthy. There are those that we have known long enough to know that that should not be trusted. But how about people we know nothing about? Do we know that we can trust them? No. Do we know that they cannot be trusted? No. So we don't trust them. This is not calling them dishonest or unreliable.
 
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nPeace

Veteran Member
In my many decades of debating creationist thinking the well educated have to be very careful with word use and definitions. These Christians are deceptive and dishonest in using certain words and definitions, and one of these words is "chance". Christians use their own distorted meaning, and will interject their meanings at times when it isn't appropriate.

These debates are seldom about well educated people illuminating each other on the latest finding of science. It is the well educated correcting the disinformation and deceptive thinking of religious people. We critical thinkers are well aware of what is happening here, the religious don't seem to be. This suggests self-deception on the part of the religious.

A stream is going to follow a path of least resistance. If by chance there is a cold winter, and by chance a lot of snowfall, and by chance a sudden melting of snow come spring, there will be vastly more water flowing down mountains, and the increase in this water can mean flooding of streams and rivers, and this can mean a change in the paths they take. This was not a plan, or goal. This is just the circumstances of nature due to abnormal patterns of the weather which were deviations due to chance. This happens all the time in nature because nature is dynamic and subject to changes.


You theists keep trying to force in plans, goals, and design into what we observe, and distorting that chance is a set of limited options that can result in dramatic changes. You keep trying to find a place for your gods. We well educated understand that chance just means there were some natural options, but you believers want to define whatever happened as a divine chance of the god lottery. We then correct your error.
I can see you just are about making accusations based on your preconceived ideas, and distorting persons' statements, rather than discussing what someone actually says, or are discussing, so this is not a conversation, just personal attacks that are irrelevant to the actual discussion. Nothing else to say here.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
We haven't got a god hypothesis just faith in a God.

Okay, so you have no valid reason to believe in God, We all can agree with that.
I find evidence for God is evident. But I allow myself faith.

I don't think you know what the phrase "is evident" means. If that is true why can't you ever post evidence?
But they are not in an ancient holy book. God is in an ancient Holy Book and the Jews have had rituals and demonstrations of faith from the time the Law was given them till now and the stories that were passed down were stories of faith because they saw the miracles.

Now you are saying that the Jews convinced themselves of things that did not happen. Okay, so what?


But it is not impossible that God exists and that the stories passed down about Him are true. Meet those stories with faith and you find yourself believing in the God of the Bible.

That does not show that a God is possible. It only shows that a person can have irrational beliefs. You are not helping yourself here.

A God explains life and consciousness without the need for magic in science.
It is only science that we are talking about here. Life is not science, science is not life. Science is a subject at school and it examines the material world and presumes no supernatural in it's work, but it does not speak for all reality.

Actually explaining all of reality is the job of science. It is a problem solving method. But God does not explain anything. It is a claim and a magical claim at that.

But you have faith in critical thinking. Is something produced by chance, something we can trust?

No, we have a well earned respect. We can show that it leads to the same answer for problems countless times. It solves problems that other methods can't. One's work can be crosschecked and confirmed or refuted by others. You just can't do that with religious beliefs. Totally different answers are given depending upon a person's faith. A Muslim cannot show a Christian to be wrong and a Christian cannot show a Muslim to be wrong. One ends up believing what one wants to believe. Usually the faith that one was born into.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Natural selection is unguided then.

unguided - not guided in a particular path or direction
chance - the occurrence of events in the absence of any obvious intention or cause
:dizzy: :confused: :facepalm:

Do you see a problem with your arguement?
Yes! If someone redefines "guided" in a way that supports his false claims the argument does not look as bad as it actually is. Sorry, natural selectin is still guided. You do not get to define yourself out of a problem.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Natural selection is unguided then.

It is unintended, not unguided or undirected. The guidance comes from the unconscious forces and circumstances that do the selecting. The word select should indicate to you that the process is guided, whereas the word natural tells you that it was unintended.

why are you guys so reluctant to admit that evolutionary processes are by chance, like the paths of rivers?

Others have told you that it's because of the fuzzy way that unbelievers use such words. I would have no problem with chance if that term meant unintentionally selected, but it doesn't. I also tend to avoid the word random in these discussions as well for the same reason. The word makes people think of junkyard tornadoes assembling 747s.

Do snowflakes form by chance? No, not as I use the word. They form every time the conditions are right for them, and they have hexagonal symmetry. Something is guiding this process, but nothing is intending it.

How about spherical planets orbiting in elliptical orbits? Is it by chance that they're spherical and travel in ellipses? Could they have been a different shape by chance, and maybe done figure eights around their star instead? These are guided processes that you would likely call chance.

this is not a conversation, just personal attacks that are irrelevant to the actual discussion.

We rarely see debate with the faithful any more that isn't framed as attack. Why is that? Is it because debate doesn't occur in churches? Is it because so many have little to no academic exposure, are just seeing it for the first time here, and are taken aback and offended by what they see? Do you ever wonder why you don't see your comments called attacks by those with whom you disagree?
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Actually, science has explanations by scientist, which are subject to change at any time

Not "at any time". Instead, only when new evidence demands it.

, and are uncertain

yes, it's called "intellectual honesty".

- likely very wrong

No, working scientific theories are not "likely very wrong".


, and cannot be verifiably proven.

Yes, no theory in the natural sciences is ever considered "proven".
That's a good thing btw, because it is the primary reason why it is even possible to learn more and make progress. You don't like learning and making progress?
It seems you don't. It seems you are stating this as if it is a point "against" science for some reason, as if it is a "bad" thing.

Go ask any scientist, if you object.
So you do have faith.

Que?
What are you referring to?
Did you actually read the post you are replying to?
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Well if that is so, why are you guys so reluctant to admit that evolutionary processes are by chance, like the paths of rivers?

He just explained to you how it is NOT by chance.
A river follows the path of least resistance. So if it takes a left turn instead of a right turn, it is not "by chance". It is not a "random" turn. It is, instead a turn that follows the path of least resistance.

Derp.

It's not us believers that have the problem, evidently.

Your primary problem seems to be one of reading comprehension. The lack thereof, to be preciese.

We say chance. You go... "Uh UH." Then you go, "uh huh."

Actually it's more like you say chance and we then explain how it's not chance, motivated with examples and everything.

That then translates in your mind as a mere "uh uh".
Perhaps the problem is on your end.
The post I'm replying to is a fine example.

You are literally replying to a post that says the flow of a river is not "by chance" but rather by "path of least resistance". And in your reply, you just blatantly ignore that and say it's "by chance". :rolleyes:

Yes, I can see how the intellectual honesty component of science would bother you. Cleary that's not your style.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Why do theistic claims always seem to retreat to the fringes of scientific research, where little or nothing has yet been established? :rolleyes:

Science has made no claims regarding God and the BB, that I'm aware of.
God not being needed is usually applied to established science, where known, natural mechanisms satisfactorily account for some phenomenon.
Big Bang physics is still in its infancy.

But we have no reason to expect that any god is likely to pop up. One never has before, once we discovered a natural mechanisms for a phenomenon previously attributed to him.

It is at the fringes where God has said that He did it. But of course skeptics would want to point to things like lightning and a scientific mechanism for it and then say that God has been shown to not be needed for lightning. And it is skeptics that do this stuff and science actually says nothing about God and lightning and the small stuff in the middle of science where natural mechanisms are found. It is a skeptic BS argument, not a statement of science.
It would be great for skeptics if people believed you about stuff like lightning or the northern lights or whatever and did not notice that science is moving in on God's areas at the fringes and is doing so through the mechanism of natural methodology and even claiming that something like abiogenesis has been shown to be true when science says it has not.
And yes I don't expect a God to pop up in the middle of science (especially a science that has the naturalistic methodology and would not know what to look for as evidence for a God and would reject it anyway.)
Is no God popping up supposed to be evidence against the existence of a God?
That sounds like another skeptic BS argument to me.
A natural mechanism was not evidence that God does not exist.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
OK. Some here have asked what would happen, and, I was illustrating that science is already on its way to synthesizing life, and demonstrating a natural mechanism for abiogenesis. I addressed both questions.

But as I said, I did not ask that, so you answered 2 questions that I did not ask and did not answer the one I asked.


Why does religion claim spirit is needed for life, if not to bolster its claim of God?
What actual evidence might be discovered for the claim?
Until such evidence be discovered, why would it be reasonable to believe in it, and why would it not be reasonable to expect a chemical basis?

It's to do with the definition of words in the Bible.
Also there are passages that show that physical material is not living and that God is the source of life.
But I think it is possible that just the life of the body could be chemically based but the life of the soul is another thing. Consciousness, mind, emotion, will. To attribute that to matter seems to bring magic into science imo.
3 Greek Words for Life in the New Testament and How They Apply to Us

I don't think science will find this life if it is spirit based, so people who go only by what science says will not believe in spirit based life, they will end up believing matter magically came/comes to life.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
No, it will not show that abiogenesis is true.

Have you heard about Last Thursdayism? I have known of Christians that believed a version of it. But I would say that it would likely refute you claim about "spirit". That is assuming one of the steps in making life is not:

Okay, spirit, spirit, spirit, I know that I have a jar of it somewhere. Ahh! There it is. Add one teaspoon of spirit.

Spirit might be true but science which cannot see or test for it will never be able to tell us.
This is why science with it's naturalistic methodology and inability to see/test for spirit, will always conclude that life and consciousness and anything else are physically based and come from physical nature.
Science steps over the bounds of science because it cannot see where the bounds are and keeps presuming that it's naturalistic conclusions are correct. How could it be any other way?
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
Yes, no theory in the natural sciences is ever considered "proven".
That's a good thing btw, because it is the primary reason why it is even possible to learn more and make progress. You don't like learning and making progress?
It seems you don't. It seems you are stating this as if it is a point "against" science for some reason, as if it is a "bad" thing.

It is a bad thing, in that most of the natural sciences are too dependent on the same math used by Politicians, Pollsters and Gambling Casinos; Statistics. It is not hard to transition between these professions due to a common math bridge that uses a black box. The black box offers cover.

If we only had purely rational theory, without any statistical math fudge, then theory would be better, by default; age of reason. One new bad data, for a rational theory, can kill the theory or force it back to the drawing board. If we could show a confirmed exception to Special Relativity, it would need to be revised. With statistics theory dozens of bad data may be within the margin of error. They theory will still stand. It would hard for Politics to commandeer rational science. Name me one rational theory, such as Newtonian Mechanics or Einstein's Relativity that politics was able to undermine or commandeer? This is harder to do without a fuzzy dice math bridge..

Next name me some statistical backed science that has been commandeered by Politics. Climate science, COVID, Abortion, Gender Science all use statistics for the needed fudge. Science and politics both use the same math, so there is a bridge between them. Gaming industries also use this math allowing politics to paint the picture of lottery winners. Politics cannot survive on pure data and logic alone; rational theory. The lie needs fuzzy dice, which statistics can provide.

I have made the point that DNA, as shown in textbooks; naked DNA, is not reactive. It does not exist like that in cell, or in the living state at any level. The DNA needs water to become active and part of life. DNA does not work in any other solvent. So why does Department of Education not show the truth in textbooks; water with DNA? This is more rational and lacks fuzzy dice. Science and politics both make use of the same margins for error. Science needs to break the fuzzy math bridge, so it can become science, above politics.

This is not about religion versus science, but rational science versus political science. Politicians have become so pretentious we need to insulate science so it can stand above the divide. The only way to do that is to make the fuzzy dice science bridges be known as second tier science. We can allow it to stay, but make it clear it can be ruined by politics; math bridge, so it is not first tier.
 
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It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
skeptics would want to point to things like lightning and a scientific mechanism for it and then say that God has been shown to not be needed for lightning

What is a god needed for with lightning? Once, it was thought a god threw lightning bolts down to earth or was expressing his anger. Today, we know that gods aren't needed for that, so the creationist refocuses on the matter and claims that a god is needed for electrons to exist. That's what's meant by the god of the gaps. Then, somebody comes along and shows that electrons, like all other matter, energy, and force, arose at the time of the Big Bang from a hot, dense state not containing electrons to start, and the god was then reassigned the task of creating that seed from which the universe bloomed.

it is skeptics that do this stuff and science actually says nothing about God and lightning

Science agrees that a god is not needed. If it didn't, you would know. You would see the god in the scientific description of lightning.

I don't expect a God to pop up in the middle of science

That is saying the same as that science will never need a god in any of its facts, laws, and theories. When one is needed, it will be added to the narrative.

Is no God popping up supposed to be evidence against the existence of a God?

Yes, for an interventionist god. We don't expect the deist god to pop up. He's left the building. Absence of expected evidence is evidence of absence. No falsifying find for evolutionary theory after several generations of man is among the evidence that none will ever be found and that the theory is correct.

there are passages that show that physical material is not living and that God is the source of life.

This is what happens when one gratuitously tosses an unneeded god into the mix. Suddenly, the narrative becomes unnecessarily complex in violation of Occam's parsimony principle, and worse yet, to explain things never detected.

Consciousness, mind, emotion, will. To attribute that to matter seems to bring magic into science imo.

You wrote this before. Your solution to what appears to be magic to you if it is said to be of naturalistic origin is to bring gods into nature to do the magic.

Spirit might be true but science which cannot see or test for it will never be able to tell us.

What you keep missing is that when you say that something can't be tested for, you are saying that it leaves no imprint on discernible reality. So what do we need this idea for? What does it explain if it doesn't create even a ripple onto the theater of consciousness? Worse, you also say that YOU can detect it anyway, that you have evidence that isn't evident. to "science." Anything evident is evident to scientists, too, and the rest of us. It makes no difference if spirit is "true" if it can't affect us. I put true in quotes because what we are describing is an unfalsifiable statement when we say that spirit exists but is undetectable, that is, makes no impact on conscious experience. We call such statements neither correct nor incorrect. We simply disregard them as meaningless.

Science steps over the bounds of science because it cannot see where the bounds are and keeps presuming that it's naturalistic conclusions are correct.

And with good reason. They accurately predict outcomes. That's all we require to call a statement correct, or knowledge. One would need to falsify such an idea to identify it as incorrect, which can't happen with a correct idea.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
And with good reason. They accurately predict outcomes. That's all we require to call a statement correct, or knowledge. One would need to falsify such an idea to identify it as incorrect, which can't happen with a correct idea.

When you add statistical math to science, all bets are off. I have read studies where coffee is good for you and then not good for you, all based on the day the study was run. I would assume you would not call this good science.
In my many decades of debating creationist thinking the well educated have to be very careful with word use and definitions. These Christians are deceptive and dishonest in using certain words and definitions, and one of these words is "chance". Christians use their own distorted meaning, and will interject their meanings at times when it isn't appropriate.

These debates are seldom about well educated people illuminating each other on the latest finding of science. It is the well educated correcting the disinformation and deceptive thinking of religious people. We critical thinkers are well aware of what is happening here, the religious don't seem to be. This suggests self-deception on the part of the religious.

A stream is going to follow a path of least resistance. If by chance there is a cold winter, and by chance a lot of snowfall, and by chance a sudden melting of snow come spring, there will be vastly more water flowing down mountains, and the increase in this water can mean flooding of streams and rivers, and this can mean a change in the paths they take. This was not a plan, or goal. This is just the circumstances of nature due to abnormal patterns of the weather which were deviations due to chance. This happens all the time in nature because nature is dynamic and subject to changes.

You theists keep trying to force in plans, goals, and design into what we observe, and distorting that chance is a set of limited options that can result in dramatic changes. You keep trying to find a place for your gods. We well educated understand that chance just means there were some natural options, but you believers want to define whatever happened as a divine chance of the god lottery. We then correct your error.

I was a trained as a scientist with a graduate degree in chemical engineering. That is one of the most complete science educations you can get, since the core requirements spans the widest range of pure and applied science and engineering of all sciences. You need to know good science to scale theory.

My problem is not with all science, but with those areas of science that are overly dependent, on statistical models. The black box and margin of error approach makes bad theory look better than it is actually is.

A rational theory has a much harder standard of proof. If one data point was found not to work, rational theories will need to be revised. Newtonian mechanics did not work at relativistic conditions, so another theory called relativity needed to be developed. Both are still used, based on which conditions.

In more modern terms, it was discovered the core of the earth rotates faster than the surface of the earth. Since this was not predicted or even taken into account by current earth models, these current models should be revised to take the new data into account and make it all connect if they are rational. Check to see if earth science is holding its part of the bargain. If not, this science is not leading by example.

On the other hand, statistical type theories, have builtin fudge factors. The best curve does not even have to touch all the data to be able to form a theory. That much fudge makes it impossible to hold that type of theory to the same high standard as any rational theory. Bad statistical theory can linger way too long because of this statistical fudge approach. Rational theory need to hit the bulls eye, while statistical theory only has to hit the target stand. Not all theory has the same.

For example it can be proven that DNA lacks functionality without water. Yet science education stills shows DNA as naked, as though naked DNA is bio-active and does everything claimed of active DNA. This odd situation has to do with fudge math, being overly important to biology The margin of error is used to ignore water, even with falsifying experiments using water. On can not get rid of these bad premises, due to the fudge allowing this bad theory to stand way too long.

Statistics is the same math used by gambling casinos, politicians, and pollsters, none of which are the most trusted or reliable business. Each uses the same math to drive their own predictions. The main problem with this common math, is fuzzy theory in science can be handed off and become politically driven. The theory only have to moves it between two black boxes. The reverse is also true, if Politics say genders diversity is natural, science can use the black box to fetch a theory.

Is Lady Luck the goddess of statistics and fuzzy dice? I want to open the black box see what god can defy common sense reason and get better treatment than rational theory? Not all of science behaves this way, but the ones that do, tend to become the most political, due to the easy handoff connected to their common math. Evolution has been political since day one and it is based on fuzzy math. Politicians do not argue over chemistry or particle physics, since this is more rational and cannot be shaken with a black box. Medicine and disease can get political, due the common fuzzy dice math; COVID takes sides.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
A rational theory has a much harder standard of proof. If one data point was found not to work, rational theories will need to be revised. Newtonian mechanics did not work at relativistic conditions, so another theory called relativity needed to be developed. Both are still used, based on which conditions.
Do you seriously think that the theory of evolution does not change? Theories are often tweaked and refined as times goes by. And your "one data point" is extremely wrong. You forgot that a a single data point can easily be wrong. A single data point disagreeing only calls for more investigation. Sometimes a theory has to be adjusted eventually. But there is so much positive evidence for evolution right now that a single data point will probably only cause a minor change in the theory.

I hope you are aware that the theory has been refined immensely since Darwin's time.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
On the other hand, statistical type theories, have builtin fudge factors. The best curve does not even have to touch all the data to be able to form a theory. That much fudge makes it impossible to hold that type of theory to the same high standard as any rational theory. Bad statistical theory can linger way too long because of this statistical fudge approach. Rational theory need to hit the bulls eye, while statistical theory only has to hit the target stand. Not all theory has the same.
Sorry, but you are simply being irrational here. Measurements are never perfect. They can't be because of all sorts of reasons. There is a whole branch of science behind understanding the natural errors that will occur in any measurement. What you claim is "rational" is a pipedream that cannot exist. Perhaps you should study quantum mechanics a bit,. It all began with the recognition of the fact that we cannot know both the location and the momentum of a particle.
 
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