Are Catholics Christians?

[athanasius]

. Please consider me apostate from Rome in our future debates. - BT [/COLOR]

I cannot consider you apostate fromthe Catholic church because the Catholic church does not consider that. For you to be apostate, you must have once belonged to the Catholic faith and been a believer and then formally left it. You were not. I hope that helps.

Good questions though!
May the Lord Jesus Christ bless you richly in his love.

 

[bible truth]

Unless you were baptised and believed in the Catholic faith and formally left it, then the excommunications of trent do not apply to you personally, reguardless of your fathers expierience. There is no problem in Trent quoting Paul in Gal. As I said earlier in my post although it means "excommunication", ecommunication for a formal heretic "can" mean death of the soul(James 5:19-20). It does not mean that we are sending anyone to hell. Only that a formal heretic is excommunicated and by biblical stanrdars excommunicated person unless they repent and come back(James 5:19-20) will not inherit etrnal salvation. We cannot judge hearts ultimatly though. Luther may be in heaven, God will judge his heart and works, God knows his intentions and mind but he also may be in hell if he really believed in the Catholic faith and left it because that would be like turning your back on Jesus for your own purpose. Does this make sense to you? I have the Canons of the Councils of trent. No problem there. Your welcome to post them, too if you would like. But you must understand how Catholics interpet these councils.

I used to consider myself protestant and went to a Southern Baptist chruch for 5 years before I reverted back to Christ Catholic Church.

Hey Athanasius,

Thank you for your respectful and gentle way of debating. I believe our on-going conversation should enrich your seminary experience. My college roommate’s twin brother is a Roman Catholic Priest. I’m 46 years old, so college was over 25 years ago for me. I have also seen many others who left contemporary Christianity (protestant) and went back to their Roman Catholic roots. This is very understandable; due to the lack of apparent reverence that are self-evident in some contemporary protestant churches.

I want to discuss one last point about the Council of Trent. Are you saying all ex-Roman Catholics who leave the Roman Church for all other religions are under the curse of Trent (eternal damnation)? Does this include ex-Roman Catholics who are now atheists or agnostics too? I wish my parent’s baptized me as a Roman Catholic at infancy….lol. I believe God has granted salvation to both Roman Catholic and Protestant individuals found in both communities. I believe both communities have many who have not been converted and are currently under the wrath of God. I believe being a bad catholic is better than being a good Orthodox Roman Catholic. I believe the official Roman Catholic gospel is a different gospel than what is proclaimed through Scripture alone. I believe Galatians 1 applies to all who professes Christ.

I believe there are two main issues that divide official Roman Catholicism and Historical Biblical Christianity (reformation solas). I believe they are essential issues that should be discussed.

1. Authority: Sola Scriptura or Magisterial of the Roman Catholic Church

2. The person and work of Christ (justification, sacraments, sufficiency of Christ, etc)

Do you agree? Should we concentrate on these central and important issues? What would you like to discuss first? - BT

 

[athanasius]

Hey Athanasius,

Thank you for your respectful and gentle way of debating. I believe our on-going conversation should enrich your seminary experience. My college roommate’s twin brother is a Roman Catholic Priest. I’m 46 years old, so college was over 25 years ago for me. I have also seen many others who left contemporary Christianity (protestant) and went back to their Roman Catholic roots. This is very understandable; due to the lack of apparent reverence that are self-evident in some contemporary protestant churches.

I want to discuss one last point about the Council of Trent. Are you saying all ex-Roman Catholics who leave the Roman Church for all other religions are under the curse of Trent (eternal damnation)? Does this include ex-Roman Catholics who are now atheists or agnostics too? I wish my parent’s baptized me as a Roman Catholic at infancy….lol. I believe God has granted salvation to both Roman Catholic and Protestant individuals found in both communities. I believe both communities have many who have not been converted and are currently under the wrath of God. I believe being a bad catholic is better than being a good Orthodox Roman Catholic. I believe the official Roman Catholic gospel is a different gospel than what is proclaimed through Scripture alone. I believe Galatians 1 applies to all who professes Christ.

I believe there are two main issues that divide official Roman Catholicism and Historical Biblical Christianity (reformation solas). I believe they are essential issues that should be discussed.

1. Authority: Sola Scriptura or Magisterial of the Roman Catholic Church

2. The person and work of Christ (justification, sacraments, sufficiency of Christ, etc)

Do you agree? Should we concentrate on these central and important issues? What would you like to discuss first? - BT

Thank you my brother for also being kindheated and honest in your debating too. its grat to dialgue with other christians. I am not a seminary student I am married and a lay person, I attend college for my degree in catholic theololgy so I can teach at the university level eventually(in a few years). I am 30. Pretty much what you said was true, yes the only way to be under the "ecommunications"(Not Curse) of the Church of Rome is to have been a formal member and left willingly knowing it was the true Church.

I agree with you alot on alot of things as well as the Catholic church would. But I differ in some ways. I would say that the Catholic gospel that is preached in our church is the Gospel handed down by Jesus and guided by the Holy Spirit throughout the ages. Catholics would acknoweldge that Protestants have part of the gospel. They have Jesus which is the main thing, and they have alot of truth, but We would say that do not possess the fullness of truth as only found in Christs One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. We also beleive that Protstans may come to salvation in the gace of Christ. But we would want them to have the full gospel.

I agree with you 110% that the 2 things that divide us are sola Scriptura and Sola fide. I did debate on sola scriptura in front of 40 people at a baptist bible study once. I also worte a College Paper on it if you are interested in reading it.

It is always good to talk to you my friend in Christ Jesus, may we praise him:bow: and worship him and open our hearts to him and his truth in this dialuge.

In Jesus through Mary,
Athanasius

 

[bible truth]

Thank you my brother for also being kindheated and honest in your debating too. its grat to dialgue with other christians. I am not a seminary student I am married and a lay person, I attend college for my degree in catholic theololgy so I can teach at the university level eventually(in a few years). I am 30. Pretty much what you said was true, yes the only way to be under the "ecommunications"(Not Curse) of the Church of Rome is to have been a formal member and left willingly knowing it was the true Church.

I agree with you alot on alot of things as well as the Catholic church would. But I differ in some ways. I would say that the Catholic gospel that is preached in our church is the Gospel handed down by Jesus and guided by the Holy Spirit throughout the ages. Catholics would acknoweldge that Protestants have part of the gospel. They have Jesus which is the main thing, and they have alot of truth, but We would say that do not possess the fullness of truth as only found in Christs One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. We also beleive that Protstans may come to salvation in the gace of Christ. But we would want them to have the full gospel.

I agree with you 110% that the 2 things that divide us are sola Scriptura and Sola fide. I did debate on sola scriptura in front of 40 people at a baptist bible study once. I also worte a College Paper on it if you are interested in reading it.

It is always good to talk to you my friend in Christ Jesus, may we praise him:bow: and worship him and open our hearts to him and his truth in this dialuge.

In Jesus through Mary,
Athanasius

I appreciate your desire to discuss these essential issues. I believe both protestant and Roman Catholic communities would state that Jude 3 is exclusive to their particular understanding of the Faith. I think if we are being honest for God's hidden purpose and reasons, we can already see that our Faiths are mutually exclusive by the way we sign our screen names. The way we sign our screen names have doctrinal significance, correct? "In Christ" is in reference to Romans 5 and all that the Apostle Paul teaches through Scripture alone, regarding the believer's union with Christ. What do you mean by "In Jesus through Mary"?

In Christ,
BT

 

[athanasius]

I appreciate your desire to discuss these essential issues. I believe both protestant and Roman Catholic communities would state that Jude 3 is exclusive to their particular understanding of the Faith. I think if we are being honest for God's hidden purpose and reasons, we can already see that our Faiths are mutually exclusive by the way we sign our screen names. The way we sign our screen names have doctrinal significance, correct? "In Christ" is in reference to Romans 5 and all that the Apostle Paul teaches through Scripture alone, regarding the believer's union with Christ. What do you mean by "In Jesus through Mary"?

In Christ,
BT

I am simply referring to the natural order of Creation on how through one women(Eve) and one man(Adam) sin and death came into the world,. And how through one women(Mary) eternal life and grace(Jesus) came into the world. Mary is near and dear to my heart. We do not worship her, she is merly a glorfied Mother but she is Jesus Mother, the Queen Mother and our Mother. Jesus is my Savior, brother and personal Lord ,, Mary is my personal Mother.
I hope tha thelps.
Ps Were does Romans 5 say anything about Scripture alone.
God bless

 

[bible truth]

I am simply referring to the natural order of Creation on how through one women(Eve) and one man(Adam) sin and death came into the world,. And how through one women(Mary) eternal life and grace(Jesus) came into the world. Mary is near and dear to my heart. We do not worship her, she is merly a glorfied Mother but she is Jesus Mother, the Queen Mother and our Mother. Jesus is my Savior, brother and personal Lord ,, Mary is my personal Mother.
I hope tha thelps.
Ps Were does Romans 5 say anything about Scripture alone.
God bless

Romans chapter 5 is about how I sign my name (In Christ - BT). In Christ is Paul’s shorthand for a believer's " union with Christ". Sola Scriptura is another subject altogether. Mary is a big subject but not an essential subject, if she is not a mediator to Christ or to God the Father. The way you sign your screen name can imply some type of mediator type relationship of Mary. I don't think you can find any biblical writers who used that kind of affection or doctrinal significance for Mary, correct? The doctrinal debate has to do with our union with Christ as being sufficient for all things. Mary has no significance to our access to the throne of grace, do you agree? Do you access the throne of grace through Christ alone?

In Christ,
BT

 

[athanasius]

Mary is a big subject but not an essential subject, if she is not a mediator to Christ or to God the Father. The way you sign your screen name can apply some type of mediator type relationship of Mary. I don't think you can find any biblical writers who used that kind of affection or doctrinal significance for Mary, correct? The doctrinal debate has to do with our union with Christ as being sufficient for all things. Mary has no significance to our access to the throne of grace, do you agree? Do you access the throne of grace through Christ alone?

Yes I and Catholics do have access to the throne of grace by Christ alone, but this has nothing to do with the Catholic understanding of Mary or her intercession. You may not find any biblical writers that do mention Mary in those terms but what difference does that make? i would agrue that biblically Mary does have have significance(in a passive non direct sense) to our access to throne of grace. becuase if it were not for her "Yes" to God in Having Jesus then we would not have Acess to Jesus who is the throne of gracea and our salvation.


I hope that helps brother

Bless you in Jesus the King through Mary the Queen Mother,
Athanasius

 

[bible truth]

Yes I and Catholics do have access to the throne of grace by Christ alone, but this has nothing to do with the Catholic understanding of Mary or her intercession. You may not find any biblical writers that do mention Mary in those terms but what difference does that make? i would agrue that biblically Mary does have have significance(in a passive non direct sense) to our access to throne of grace. becuase if it were not for her "Yes" to God in Having Jesus then we would not have Acess to Jesus who is the throne of gracea and our salvation.


I hope that helps brother

Bless you in Jesus the King through Mary the Queen Mother,
Athanasius

Okay my friend. I have to leave for the day. I will look for your posts at a later date. I have to strongly disagree with you that Mary could have changed God's plan of redemption by saying no to God...LOL. I believe God is completely sovereign apart from mankind’s disobedience. I believe the Bible teaches that Mary was a sinner like all descendants of Adam. She also rejoices in her Savior Jesus Christ. Mary's obedience or disobedience has no bearing on God's eternal decrees of saving a people to Himself. I hope you are having fun. I pray that God will use this conversation for His glory and purposes. Could I request that you adress me as a seperated brother accrording to official Roman Catholic teaching? I'm looking forward what God has planned for us (Romans 8:28).

Your friend -
In union with Christ - BT

 

[athanasius]

Okay my friend. I have to leave for the day. I will look for your posts at a later date. I have to strongly disagree with you that Mary could have changed God's plan of redemption by saying no to God...LOL. I believe God is complete sovereign apart from mankind’s disobedience. I believe the Bible teaches that Mary was a sinner like all descendants of Adam. She also rejoices in her Savior Jesus Christ. Mary's obedience or disobedience has no bearing on God's eternal decrees of saving a people to Himself. I hope you are having fun. I pray that God will use this conversation for His glory and purposes. Could I request that you adress me as a seperated brother accrording to official Roman Catholic teaching? I'm looking forward what God has planned for us (Romans 8:28).

Your friend -
In union with Christ - BT

Amen! I will definatly call you my separated brother. Its great to talk to you. Look forward to later discussions. God bless you always in the Grace and Power of the incarnate word(Jn 1:14).

Athanasius

 

[wizanda]

Catholic Bible = 80 + books
Most Christian denominations marked with 66 books
mmmmm think the one that includes the end of Daniel and other points like Esther was a women would make allot more sense to all of us then.....or the new additions of Maccabees 3 and 4 (1977) which teach that of reasoning on not eating unclean meat or wine; which is after what appears to be the abomination of desolation, as the daily sacrifice was taken at this same point it explains.
So if only half of us are getting the full picture, whom would you say is more likely to be a correct “follower of the way” or disciple etc….

 

[TruthInCatholocism]

Laity Means The Body Of the Faithful Outside The Clergy

Im Not Clergy.... Therfor I am a layperson

but in regards to my certifications...The Archdiosese Of New York and Records in The Vatican have the originals of my certifications...Seeing as it is there Schools and Courses i Recieved them does that help?

And my Messages and "teachings" are not Oppionions i Soley Believe they are views as tuaght By The Church

Though im wondering how all this went this far off topic.. we are still discussing Catholics as Christians right? O_O


And Wizanda..... Huh? O_O Not Exactly Sure what Posistion Your holding

 

[wizanda]

Being more diplomatic and having allot more spiritual knowledge to share, then I know what to do with.
So if it means discussing without hurting peoples feelings and showing love and understanding of all sides firsts, then it makes more sense don't you feel?
No point saying your an angel sent from heaven and then bash peoples, that was never my intention...:angel2:

 

[*Paul*]

Just thought I'd chime in. To me Catholics in every sense of the word are Christians. They believe in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savoiur. To insuiate that they are not is just folly in your error (to all who claim they are not).

Does the Mormon church now disagree with the Personage that said this?
18 My object in going to ainquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.
19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all awrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those bprofessors were all ccorrupt; that: “they ddraw near to me with their lips, but their ehearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the fcommandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the gpower thereof.”
www.lds.org
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/search?search=creeds+are

 

[TruthInCatholocism]

Heres the thing.. Im still lost... I must Be missing something...Never claimed I was an angel... Never Bashed anyone....Did debate (hence the Forum Discussion Titles) With Fellow Religious Enthusiasts.... we are intitled to our own conclusion, at the end of every Debate and discussion (sometimes argumental) we still have "free will"

and by all means... Share your Spirutual Knowledge... Keeping in mind though.. that this post is discussing Catholics as Christians....

When i asked what your posistion was, it was asking you what your posistion was on Catholics as Christians... Because your Post was unclear to me...

Now i have a Question to all involved in this post... It occurs to me this Topic is no longer asking weather Catholics are Christians.. In a sence it is Questioning Catolics in general.. Seeing as it is Pretty Clear despite what you think about Us Catholics.. You can not deny that We are Christians, By Definition...and By Actions

So to continue to argue this topic (to me anyway) seems pointless Because this "Topic" has gone far off topic..... wouldnt you say?

God Bless

 

[wizanda]

Yes they are more Christian is what that was saying...yet not more inline with being a disciple, as a disciple should only drink water.

 

[athanasius]

Catholic Bible = 80 + books
Most Christian denominations marked with 66 books
mmmmm think the one that includes the end of Daniel and other points like Esther was a women would make allot more sense to all of us then.....or the new additions of Maccabees 3 and 4 (1977) which teach that of reasoning on not eating unclean meat or wine; which is after what appears to be the abomination of desolation, as the daily sacrifice was taken at this same point it explains.
So if only half of us are getting the full picture, whom would you say is more likely to be a correct “follower of the way” or disciple etc….

Catholic bible only has 73 books. am only 1 and 2 Maccebeees

 

[Katzpur]

Does the Mormon church now disagree with the Personage that said this?
18 My object in going to ainquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.
19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all awrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those bprofessors were all ccorrupt; that: “they ddraw near to me with their lips, but their ehearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the fcommandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the gpower thereof.”
www.lds.org

This is a statement on the extra-biblical creeds, which we as Latter-day Saints do not believe to have been inspired; it is not intended as a definition of who is or is not a Christian. We believe that anyone who sincerely professes to worship Jesus Christ, who looks to Him for salvation and who strives to follow Christ's example is, in fact, a Christian. We believe God told Joseph Smith that there were doctrinal errors in all of the Christian Churches of his day. We do not believe He told him that Catholics aren't Christians. If you believe that the Catholic Church's doctrine is 100% true, why are you not a Catholic? It is entirely possible to believe that a Church does not contain the fullness of the truth and to still believe it to be a Christian Church.

 

[TruthInCatholocism]

Jesus knows our hearts better than we do...

To be a follower Of Jesus...TO Follow his teachings is to be Chrisitan...

Just Because (most)Non-Catholics are Anti-Catholics and are Raised to Defend just about every form of Christianity but (the true Church :foot: )The Catholic Church...and basically Raised in there faith to (Hate :foot: ) Dislike the Catholic Faith........
"love your Neighbor" Doesnt mean i think that the Other Christian Orgonizations are any less Christian.......

Just Becaus ei dotn Believe in the "Teachings" of the Non-Catholic Organizations (Such as Sola Scriptura) doesnt mean i Believe that your all less Chrisitan..........

Unlike Most Non-Catholic Christians....... Which argue against us saying we are not Christians........ Not once did a catholic Say " Your faith isnt Christian" Because we Understand the meaning Of Being Christian..........

and on the discusion of the Bible and the removed Apychropha....

Heres something to Consider...

Qouted in 70 Ad
"You shall not waver with regard to your decisions [Sir. 1:28]. Do not be someone who stretches out his hands to receive but withdraws them when it comes to giving [Sir. 4:31]"

Qouted in 74 Ad
"Since, therefore, [Christ] was about to be manifested and to suffer in the flesh, his suffering was foreshown. For the prophet speaks against evil, ‘Woe to their soul, because they have counseled an evil counsel against themselves’ [Is. 3:9], saying, ‘Let us bind the righteous man because he is displeasing to us’ [Wis. 2:12.]"

Qouted In the Letter to the Corintihians in 80 AD
"By the word of his might [God] established all things, and by his word he can overthrow them. ‘Who shall say to him, "What have you
done?" or who shall resist the power of his strength?’ [Wis. 12:12]"

and plenty more..... The Apostles... The early Church Qouted from the Old Testiment Canon... From the 7 Books (Removed)

(Some) Protestents Claim they were added By the Catholic Church during the Council Of Trent..

The Septuagint was Completed By Scholars in year 148 B.C, The Septuagint Contained the removed 7 books

The New Testiment has over 370 References to the old testiment... Contemparary Scholars link over 320 to the Septuagint.......

Think about it.....

Heres a Copy of the orinignal Septuagint

http://www.ccel.org/bible/brenton/

 

[bible truth]

The Doctrine of Justification divides Historical Biblical Christianity with Roman Catholicism.

Historical Biblical Christianity has a different gospel than the Roman Catholic gospel. I believe the book of Romans is the best epistle to discuss the Gospel of God. The doctrine of justification divided Christendom at the Protestant Reformation. The doctrine of justification is still what divides us in the 21st century. Protestant was a nickname given to those who protested the Roman Catholic way of salvation through the sacraments. I am a true protestant, protesting Rome’s way of salvation, because it cannot be supported in Scripture. Galatians Chapter 1 proclaims that there is only one gospel that saves sinners. Therefore, the terminology of “fullness of the gospel” used by the Roman Catholic Church and the LDS Church is meaningless according to the Scriptures.

The official Roman Catholic gospel defined by the Catholic magestrium and the gospel defined by Scripture are mutually exclusive of each other. Both versions of the gospel can be wrong. One version of the gospel can be right and the other wrong. However, both versions of the gospels cannot both be right. Let’s discuss our understanding of the gospel of God, focusing on the doctrine of justification and the Book of Romans. - BT

 

[athanasius]

The Doctrine of Justification divides Historical Biblical Christianity with Roman Catholicism.

Historical Biblical Christianity has a different gospel than the Roman Catholic gospel. I believe the book of Romans is the best epistle to discuss the Gospel of God. The doctrine of justification divided Christendom at the Protestant Reformation. The doctrine of justification is still what divides us in the 21st century. Protestant was a nickname given to those who protested the Roman Catholic way of salvation through the sacraments. I am a true protestant, protesting Rome’s way of salvation, because it cannot be supported in Scripture. Galatians Chapter 1 proclaims that there is only one gospel that saves sinners. Therefore, the terminology of “fullness of the gospel” used by the Roman Catholic Church and the LDS Church is meaningless according to the Scriptures.

The official Roman Catholic gospel defined by the Catholic magestrium and the gospel defined by Scripture are mutually exclusive of each other. Both versions of the gospel can be wrong. One version of the gospel can be right and the other wrong. However, both versions of the gospels cannot both be right. Let’s discuss our understanding of the gospel of God, focusing on the doctrine of justification and the Book of Romans. - BT

The bible is part of that roman Catholic gospel defined by the Magisterium. So we have no problem the biblical doctrine. But I really wander why you insist that all doctrine or teaching has to come from only the written word of God in the bible. Where does the bible say anything about that at all? I would love to discuss the doctrine of salvation and the book of Romans and Galatians as well as other books in the bible and the testimony of the early Christian fathers with you sometime. If feel that protestants do not fully understand the Catholic concept of this and dialgue would be great. I look forward to discussing what our Lord teaches about salvation through his bible and Church. I am happy that you realize that both Gospels(Cath and Prot) cannot be correct. Many people on both sides would water down our differences for the sake of a false ecumenism. You are a thinker and have shiown yourself to love Jesus and the truth and I appreciate that my brother in Christ Jesus.

Have a good one always and God bless you in Christ the King through Mary the Queen Mother,

Athanasius