Man in a dress? Must be a shooter!

[Ciscokid]

I'm sorry, but I don't find this comparison valid at all. If someone were naked, that would be offensive, illegal, and beyond a little disturbing at a school. While some may consider it odd for a man to wear a dress, it is not as if he was flashing people or committing a crime.

But WHY is it offensive, illegal and disturbing to be naked? Who says so?

 

[Bishka]

And who are you to define what is 'normal'?

And if the guy was naked that wouldn't be a problem either provided that he wasn't doing anything untoward.

But then again I was brought up to be an open minded person who isn't a prude!

Just because someone doesn't think that wearing a dress is not normal, does not make them prude. To some people it is wrong and unnatural for them; and perhaps a cause for concern.

 

[Ciscokid]

And who are you to define what is 'normal'?

And if the guy was naked that wouldn't be a problem either provided that he wasn't doing anything untoward.

But then again I was brought up to be an open minded person who isn't a prude!

I don't define what is normal, society does. Grown men in drag is NOT normal and sure as hell not normal on a school campus.

 

[Ciscokid]

I just wanted to add another thought before I leave work. I think some of you are taking what this woman did and you are taking it personally.

I recall doing some work at a Bank and I was outside the parking lot using my cell phone. I tend to pace when I talk...that made people nervous and they sent someone out to ask me why I was there and who I was.

I didn't take this personally, I understood that they were unnerved. Keep in mind, just because YOU are comfortable with a man in a dress and heels doesn't mean the person next to you is. This woman should not be, in my opinion, chastised for being alarmed and calling the cops.

This man has a right to walk in public in a dress....that is guaranteed, what is NOT guaranteed is that everyone will be ok with this and not be alarmed. Whether you, I or he/her likes it or not, many people in society view the whole drag queen cross dressing subject with caution and reservation.

What I can tell you is that I am a parent just like this woman who called the cops. I think her mindset was in the best interest of the children. I think anybody should be able to understand that and give her the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Booko]

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070417/NEWS03/70417015/1005I've talked to a student that goes there... this isn't a closed campus. Several buildings are open to the public, and it's not unusual to see all types of people walking around there.

Was this justified? Was it transphobic? Was it justified even if it was transphobic?

Jaymes, on most days if *I* walked onto a campus in Bloomfield Hills, I would look "out of place."

(My bro-in-law lives in West Bloomfield. I dress nowhere near well-heeled enough to look like I belong there. Even the gardeners dress neater than I do most times.)

Would you call the police if you saw someone you thought was a woman dressed as a man on a college campus? A man dressed as a woman? Someone whose gender you couldn't determine?

No, I wouldn't consider it....BUT -- I actually know transgendered people and cross-dressers, so I have no reason to think there's any more reason to fear them than anyone else (and in my experience, probably less reason...)

I'm sorry, but I can't say that for most people I meet in daily life, and certainly not in Bloomfield Hills. It's an isolated sort of community, and it's tragically easy to avoid meeting anyone not like yourself, racially, religiously, culturally and especially socio-economically.

Why on earth wouldn't a man have any business being at a school dressed as a woman? Does the right to dress as you please somehow disappear when there's a high level of paranoia?

Any other thoughts on this?

Look what happened to the city manager in Largo recently.

He didn't even have the right to keep his job after he put it out there that he was transgendered and aiming to change genders.

That he was well-liked and competent went right out the window.

I don't get it. Maybe that's a good thing.

 

[Booko]

It isn't that someone was wearing clothes, it was that it was a dude in drag. To be fair, I took the story to be that of a woman dropping her child off at a regular local school. Cranbrook sounds like a kids school and it mentioned a mother dropping off a student. So YES I can see why she reacted like she did.

Yes, Cranbrook is a private grade school.

(bro-in-law lives a mile away....maybe closer.)

 

[Jaymes]

To those saying this was okay and that it's somehow justifiable to treat people in drag as suspicious: Whose permission do I need to get to wear binders in public? Or, if you really want a mind-#(*%, a binder and a dress?

As totally weird and bizarre as it seems, we trans people have lives, too! Some of them even involve college! And nobody has any right to tell me what I can and can't wear in public, provided it doesn't violate public indecency laws.

Nor should I have to fear, on top of potentially being verbally or physically assaulted, being reported as being suspicious simply for walking around on campus.

 

[Booko]

Let me ask you guys something. What if this man was naked? Do you think concern or alarm would be warranted?

At least we could be certain he wasn't carrying!

Uh...seriously a man dressed in women's clothing is EXTREMELY strange for Cranbrook.

Heck...me in a leather motorcycle jacket would be too strange for Cranbrook.

Jaymes: do you think a guy dressed similarly at a Dunwoody school here in Atlanta wouldn't possibly cause the same sort of alarm, and that some crazed mom wouldn't panic and overreact?

Bloomfield makes Dunwoody seem like po' white trash by comparison.

If you know the area, it's no surprise at all.

 

[PureX]

Well, the fact is that the insane behavior of one nut case often triggers insane behavior in others. Remember the incidents that happened after 9/11? So I do believe that schools need to be especially vigilant over the next few weeks, because the likelihood of "copycat" killings is statistically higher.

 

[Booko]

Seeing people in hijab "alarms" some people. Should people be allowed to call the cops when they see me walking around on campus?

Well, they're allowed to call the cops.

And I'm allowed to think it's an idioitic small-minded uninformed thing to do.

Not everyone lives a very cosmopolitan lifestyle. That doesn't excuse the paranoid or make it right, but it explains a lot, and I'd be more inclined to look for an opportunity to expand that persons mind than rip them a new one. Odds are they really meant well, and just had no idea how ridiculous and hurtful such an act could be.

Hm...not to mention a waste of the cops' time.

Oh, and if there are any African-Americans or Latinos thinking about visiting Bloomfield any time soon -- I strongly suggest you do so only when wearing a maid or lawnmower's uniform, because the cops might just jack you up if you don't.

Hopefully you get the idea what we're dealing with here.

 

[Jaymes]

Yes, Cranbrook is a private grade school.

(bro-in-law lives a mile away....maybe closer.)

There's also a college there, which is what I'm assuming the article was referring to when it said Bloomfield Hills Campus.

EDIT: Upon rereading what the person I mentioned said, I realize I misread them and that they were referring to the private high school there. Oops. For sake of clarity, I'm going to quote them:

"Now on the average high school an unidentified person on campus would be quite suspicious, but not on our campus. CK is a very rich private school. (Though they have a lot of financial aid if you just apply)
We have a Science Museum open to the public, an Art Academy with graduate students, the Art Academy also has a rather large gallery open to the public, gardens and garden tours, etc.
Students quickly get used to all sorts of people walking around campus (and sometimes even into the buildings). "

 

[Jaymes]

At least we could be certain he wasn't carrying!

Uh...seriously a man dressed in women's clothing is EXTREMELY strange for Cranbrook.

Heck...me in a leather motorcycle jacket would be too strange for Cranbrook.

Jaymes: do you think a guy dressed similarly at a Dunwoody school here in Atlanta wouldn't possibly cause the same sort of alarm, and that some crazed mom wouldn't panic and overreact?

Bloomfield makes Dunwoody seem like po' white trash by comparison.

If you know the area, it's no surprise at all.

It's that it's cause for alarm at all that sickens and upsets me.

 

[Booko]

What I can tell you is that I am a parent just like this woman who called the cops. I think her mindset was in the best interest of the children. I think anybody should be able to understand that and give her the benefit of the doubt.

Under these circumstances, it may be too much to assume she saw the man and thought "guy in drag!" -- it's entirely likely she saw him and thought "man in disguise!"

Some people are very jumpy. While I don't especially understand it myself, I can't deny that they are.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I think it was uncalled for. Personally, I absoluty hate it when people go off just by the way someone is dressed. By the end of each and every winter, I want to punch people who mention Columbine in my prescense just because I wear a trench coat.

I have no problem with cross-dressing either. If that is the way someone wants to dress, social rules are the only thing being broken, and people can't get over it, they are the ones with the problems. Society conditioning at it's worst. Go against the flow, and set off people's alarm.

I can't say I have every hung around men who cross-dress, but I use to hang out with one girl who was so fond of wearing men's clothing, she even wore boxers. Did I think it odd? No, as that is her own personal choice in clothing.

Does this mother even know for a fact it was indeed a man, and not a woman with a very masculine appearance? Thier are some women who look more manly than alot of men, even women who were born as women.

As far as seeing someone nude in public, that wouldn't alarm me either. Thier nude. So what? It's natural. It's not like thier waving a Glock around.

 

[Ðanisty]

As far as seeing someone nude in public, that wouldn't alarm me either. Thier nude. So what? It's natural. It's not like thier waving a Glock around.

Well, the only difference is that being nude in public is illegal. I think that's part of what bothers me though. Men in women's clothing are not doing anything illegal, yet they are treated with suspicion as if they were criminals.

 

[Booko]

There's also a college there, which is what I'm assuming the article was referring to when it said Bloomfield Hills Campus.

Ah, my late father-in-law taught at OCC's Farmington Hills campus for about 30 years. Heck -- he's buried there.

Even on an OCC campus someone in drag would look unusual, but I don't think it so likely anyone would panic.

You know how it is -- some people get their knickers in a twist where small children are involved. Well, I get small children need more protection, but there's the question of where concern becomes overreacting too.

EDIT: Upon rereading what the person I mentioned said, I realize I misread them and that they were referring to the private high school there. Oops. For sake of clarity, I'm going to quote them:

"Now on the average high school an unidentified person on campus would be quite suspicious, but not on our campus. CK is a very rich private school. (Though they have a lot of financial aid if you just apply)

:yes: VERY rich. VERY VERY rich. Think "Beacon Hill" type rich.

(my bro-in-law isn't that rich -- but then, he lives in downscale *West* Bloomfield, which is *merely* upper middle class.)

We have a Science Museum open to the public, an Art Academy with graduate students, the Art Academy also has a rather large gallery open to the public, gardens and garden tours, etc.

We've been to the Science Museum and it's really top notch. The kids were very young then.

Though our son did find an old stone axe amongst the rock mulch around the shrubs. One of my old college chums is in the field, and he stopped to visit and looks at this rock and says, "Gee, where'd you find this old axe head?" Not bad for a 7 yr old, eh?

Students quickly get used to all sorts of people walking around campus (and sometimes even into the buildings). "

Yeah, but the "all sorts" is pretty much limited to white middle classed people and maybe the occasional well-dressed African-American.

Guys in drag...um...nope I wouldn't expect to see that.

Though now I'm gonna have to ask my bro-in-law just to verify my impressions. After all, he lives there all the time. I'm only around a week or so out of a year.

 

[Booko]

It's that it's cause for alarm at all that sickens and upsets me.

I can understand that very well. But I also know that men in drag are not commonplace sights...probably most places in the U.S. There really is very little awareness among average Americans about what being transgendered really *means*, and unfortunately, some people don't even want to think about it, and so are kinda impervious to attempts to understand.

I've been pretty lucky in that regard myself. I've met people over the years that I always got to know as just other people first, and over time have gotten snippets of information in bits small enough that I could take a look at them and really reflect. That's been the case whether we're talking about people who don't fit the heterosexual mode, or people from foreign cultures, or pretty much anything else you could think of.

For others who haven't been around anyone who isn't much like them, just *seeing* a guy in drag might be more a schocking slap in the face.

 

[Booko]

By the end of each and every winter, I want to punch people who mention Columbine in my prescense just because I wear a trench coat.

You'd have thunk people would've gotten over that after a decade. I guess not.

I can't say I have every hung around men who cross-dress, but I use to hang out with one girl who was so fond of wearing men's clothing, she even wore boxers. Did I think it odd? No, as that is her own personal choice in clothing.

Hey! I've been known to swipe my husband's undies! If mine need laundering and I'm out, heck -- his are more practical anyway.

As far as seeing someone nude in public, that wouldn't alarm me either. Thier nude. So what? It's natural. It's not like thier waving a Glock around.

Well, given a choice between someone waving their handy gadget around and waving a Glock around -- the choice is obvious.

 

[Bishka]

To those saying this was okay and that it's somehow justifiable to treat people in drag as suspicious:

I've never said it was; I was just saying that some people view it as susipcious, and things that they view as suscipious they have the right to worry about; not that it is right in any way, but they do have that right.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You'd have thunk people would've gotten over that after a decade. I guess not.

Nope. And I'm glad the History channel, or whatever channel aired it's show that was an in depth look at Columbine now, because I would have hated an increase in the typical "OMG! You don't have any guns do you?!" or "Sorry If I seem nervous around you, I just got a flashback to Columbine seeing your trench coat."

For some reason the naked question keeps reminding me of Chaucer, and how his gambling problems often left him literally loosing his shirt.