Homosexuality and religious.

[CG Didymus]

OK. This is a good point.

And what she says isn't the same thing. A Christian sect doesn't say, "We are all one with all Christians and have the same truth from God". No, they say, "Those other guys are wrong."

Rather than saying all religions are true, Baha'is should make it clear that they believe the message from each manifestation was true and from the one true God. However, since with most all of them, the manifestation didn't write down his teachings, the followers wrote things that may or may not be true. Then Baha'is say the leaders misinterpreted those writings added things in. So, who knows what those true, original teachings were?

So, for me, that's saying that the religions got built around unreliable stories and teachings that the leaders declared to be Scripture and the infallible truth. But the Baha'is also make it sound like they do believe in all the other religions and their Scriptures. So, I think they're a bit misleading in how they present it.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Yeah sure, how often do Baha'i adulterers get in trouble? Why were they allowed to join in the first place? Weren't they told that adultery was forbidden? They are not known to be adulterers. They can hide their adulterous behavior. They will only get in trouble if found out. Gays, on the other hand, want to be found out. They don't want to keep their lifestyle a secret anymore. They don't believe it is wrong. But... Baha'is say that God does see it as being wrong.

You’ve got it all wrong CG. Try and understand that the Baha’i law regarding is like any Baha’i law. One does NOT join the Baha’i Faith unless they believe in Baha’u’llah’s laws.

The main prerequisite in becoming a Baha’i is to accept Baha’u’llah’s authority as a Manifestation of God. So on joining one agrees fully with His laws as He is the Mouthpiece of God.

If a person joins then objects to this and that law then they are not a Baha’i as they have not accepted Baha’u’llah’s authority. In that case if they go around trying to undermine Baha’u’llah then their membership and it’s sincerity would be questionable as to whether it was ever sincere.

Part and parcel of becoming a Baha’i is to accept that Baha’u’llah speaks for God. All Baha’is know this. If you join then you need to first accept Baha’u’llah’s unquestionable authority first or you don’t join. But to join on false pretences and then attack Baha’u’llah’s laws is being insincere.

 

[CG Didymus]

We believe in all these religions as a part of our own and that they are all linked by their teaching that a future Great One will appear which we believe is Baha’u’llah. So they are our religion too not separate. There is in reality only one religion of God evolving through the ages. The remnants of religions we see today are of those who rejected the subsequent evolution of their faith by clinging onto the interpretations of their clergy. Had they not done so there would only be one religion today evolving.

For example Jews would have accepted Christ, Christian’s accepted Muhammad, Muslims accepted Baha’u’llah and in the future Baha’is accept the next Manifestation.

But instead of following God, all religions follow their clergy which have misled them and so humanity is divided.

And how did some religions get adopted by other people? By getting conquered. And were the religions of the conquerors true religions? Like the Assyrians or the Egyptians or the Greeks?

Then if we only worry about those few religions Baha'is accept as true, then what was the order? Which was first Hinduism? And they should have followed Moses? Then who? Maybe Buddha or Zoroaster? All people should have been one of those? Then it gets easy. All should have followed Jesus. But wait, maybe it's not so easy. All people should have followed the leadership of the Roman bishop? This is the Church that made Jesus God and that a person has to confess their sins and all that. No, I don't think that was ever God's supposed plan.

 

[CG Didymus]

You’ve got it all wrong CG. Try and understand that the Baha’i law regarding is like any Baha’i law. One does NOT join the Baha’i Faith unless they believe in Baha’u’llah’s laws.

The main prerequisite in becoming a Baha’i is to accept Baha’u’llah’s authority as a Manifestation of God. So on joining one agrees fully with His laws as He is the Mouthpiece of God.

If a person joins then objects to this and that law then they are not a Baha’i as they have not accepted Baha’u’llah’s authority. In that case if they go around trying to undermine Baha’u’llah then their membership and it’s sincerity would be questionable as to whether it was ever sincere.

Part and parcel of becoming a Baha’i is to accept that Baha’u’llah speaks for God. All Baha’is know this. If you join then you need to first accept Baha’u’llah’s unquestionable authority first or you don’t join. But to join on false pretences and then attack Baha’u’llah’s laws is being insincere.

Then why are there adulterers in the Baha'i Faith?

 

[dybmh]

I do not understand why since we believe that those religions were revealed by God at one time.

"Corrupted by man" and "beliefs are absolutely false" are problematic. These problems are not diminished by "revealed by God".

We believe that those religions were revealed by God at one time but we do not believe in the corrupted versions of those religions. We believe that these older religions have all been corrupted by man over time and many of their beliefs are absolutely false.
​

If you see someone wearing a Star of David, does that symbol convey that Judaism is corrupt and many of Judaism's belief's are false?

If you see someone wearing a Cross, does that symbol convey that Christianity is corrupt and many of Christianity's belief's are false?

If Baha'i want to include Judaism in their timeline of monotheistic revelation, I'm sure there's a way to do it symbolically on their temples without insulting people. But it would take open dialogue and a willingness to compromise on both sides.

 

[Vinayaka]

We believe in all these religions as a part of our own and that they are all linked by their teaching that a future Great One will appear which we believe is Baha’u’llah. So they are our religion too not separate. There is in reality only one religion of God evolving through the ages. The remnants of religions we see today are of those who rejected the subsequent evolution of their faith by clinging onto the interpretations of their clergy. Had they not done so there would only be one religion today evolving.

For example Jews would have accepted Christ, Christian’s accepted Muhammad, Muslims accepted Baha’u’llah and in the future Baha’is accept the next Manifestation.

But instead of following God, all religions follow their clergy which have misled them and so humanity is divided.

Bahai isn't the only faith without clergy. Saying 'all religions' is just plain false. The 'clergy' in Hindusim is nothing like the clergy in Christianity. Besides all that, one can make a very decent argument that you UHJ is your clergy. They are the ones in charge of interpreting after all.

 

[Vinayaka]

Yes we’ve had lots of conflicts but this teaching is about justice not a war. It’s about all rising up against an aggressor such as Hitler but it really is not workable without world unity and world disarmament. It’s never been a teaching of a religion before and before it is adopted World unity is essential so we are talking about a world tribunal, a world international police force, a world court and tribunal not just groups banding together but a part of a well organised system.

With Baha'i as the leaders of course.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Okay, sure... What are the Holy texts of Hinduism and Buddhism that Baha'is believe are true and were revealed by God?

Then... What were the social and administrative teachings of the NT? And do you believe in the prophecies? A quote of Jesus says that many false prophets will arise. And there will be wars and rumors of war, but that is not yet the end.

Who were the many false prophets? And why is there still wars and rumors of war? Now, if instead you say that the Bible and NT wasn't written by Jesus, but by his followers, and is not accurate, then that's a different story. But Baha'is say they do believe it. But actually, I know you don't think it is accurate. And I don't think Baha'is really believe any of the Hindu or Buddhist Scriptures to be accurate.

Baha’is believe that Buddha was a Manifestation of God, like Christ, but that his followers do not possess His authentic writings.​

I'd imagine it is the same with Hindu Scriptures. Regardless, Baha'is do a major rewrite of what they say.

I love and treasure all the Manifestations and their teachings. To me Their teachings are light upon light. We have so much information about Jesus not only from the NT but the Quran and Baha’i Writings which to us are but chapters in God’s Library.

So when we want to know something we can consult all the Revelations of God. There is no need to rewrite anything as the Manifestations of God reveal more of the truth and meanings each time They appear.

The Bhagavad-Gita and Dhammapadda are so beautiful. One is just like the Hidden Words, the Gita about the spiritual struggle with the lower self. Even Krishna, well before Jesus said ‘“I am the beginning, the Middle and the End”.

Just like the Sun reappearing in the sky everyday. We call it by the different days of the week but it is the same sun which we see each day not seven suns in seven days. The Suns of Truth are the same sun of truth reappearing with a different name. But it is the same sun.

That’s why Krishna says ‘I appear from age to age to renew the principles of religion.”

 

[Vinayaka]

I do not understand why since we believe that those religions were revealed by God at one time.

'At one time' is the key here. All of those religions don't think their faiths are invalid today. They think that their faith is totally valid today. Otherwise these faiths would have disappeared into the sands of time. It's insulting to say, 'yeah, I like your faith, but it's out of date, and mine is better, the new and improved version.'

 

[CG Didymus]

Please point me to a Hindu interpretation of the Baha'i faith from a Hindu perspective. Many folks don't look at other religions at all, because they're too busy practicing their own, or simply don't care. The Baha'i faith is unique in this way, because of the central belief of progressive manifestation. That belief alone makes Baha'is obliged to interpret other faiths.

This is still a problem of some religions thinking their stuff is the infallible truth. I have heard some religions say, and I'd imagine belief, that there are many paths to God or to whatever the spiritual goal is. If Baha'is are going to maintain that their truth is The Truth, then there's going to be some people that will disagree and ask for proof. Then we're stuck with their "proof" works for them, but it doesn't necessarily work for others.

Can Baha'is honestly say that your beliefs or the beliefs of a born-again Christian are real and just as legitimate as their beliefs?

 

[Vinayaka]

I love and treasure all the Manifestations and their teachings. To me Their teachings are light upon light. We have so much information about Jesus not only from the NT but the Quran and Baha’i Writings which to us are but chapters in God’s Library.

So when we want to know something we can consult all the Revelations of God. There is no need to rewrite anything as the Manifestations of God reveal more of the truth and meanings each time They appear.

The Bhagavad-Gita and Dhammapadda are so beautiful. One is just like the Hidden Words, the Gita about the spiritual struggle with the lower self. Even Krishna, well before Jesus said ‘“I am the beginning, the Middle and the End”.

Just like the Sun reappearing in the sky everyday. We call it by the different days of the week but it is the same sun which we see each day not seven suns in seven days. The Suns of Truth are the same sun of truth reappearing with a different name. But it is the same sun.

That’s why Krishna says ‘I appear from age to age to renew the principles of religion.”

And what about Siva and Shakti and Hanuman and Surya and Kubera and Ganesha and Rama and Vishnu and Ganapati and Ayyappan. What did they all say?

 

[dybmh]

It is too late for the older religions since the spin-offs have already occurred. Hundreds and hundreds of them.
Humpty Dumpty cannot be put back together again. He is broken.

OK. Well. Judaism has, maybe, 20 denominations. So then, you should agree by that logic, Jews shoud be allowed to discourage use of Jewish symbols and interpretation of our texts outside the Jewish faith to prevent becoming like the other religions hundred and hundreds of spin-offs.

The other problem with this response is that it cuts both ways. If it's already too late then Baha'i should allow denominations because Humpty Dumpty can't be put back together again.

 

[dybmh]

We have our own symbols.
View attachment 67793

Beautiful!!

So why do you want to use ours?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Bahai isn't the only faith without clergy. Saying 'all religions' is just plain false. The 'clergy' in Hindusim is nothing like the clergy in Christianity. Besides all that, one can make a very decent argument that you UHJ is your clergy. They are the ones in charge of interpreting after all.

We don’t have any gurus or spiritual teachers either. Each Baha’i is responsible for his/her own spiritual progress and behaviour. The House of Justice are not permitted to interpret. Only to legislate upon matters not revealed in the teachings.

 

[dybmh]

And like saying that Baha'is love homosexuals and are not prejudiced against them. As long as they don't have sex with each other and don't get married.

IMO, the women's issue is much much worse because it's "do as I say, not as I do" leadership.

 

[CG Didymus]

We have so much information about Jesus not only from the NT

Yeah, and how much of that information do Baha'is have to interpret as being symbolic to make it conform to Baha'i beliefs? The main one still being the resurrection of Jesus.

 

[Vinayaka]

We don’t have any gurus or spiritual teachers either. Each Baha’i is responsible for his/her own spiritual progress and behaviour. The House of Justice are not permitted to interpret. Only to legislate upon matters not revealed in the teachings.

Same thing. They interpret on stuff he didn't write about. In a sense, all Baha'i are teachers. Isn't that what you do when you pioneer? Don't you say pioneering is teaching? The term 'clergy' can mean a whole lot of things, and I don't believe the Baha'i faith doesn't have some sort of clergy, including LSAs and NSAs. Saying you don't doesn't mean you don't. You say lots of stuff, where actions prove otherwise. All in all, I believe the Baha'i faith has great intentions, it's just that working with non-Baha'is is like somebody with poor social skills, you need some training on that, as the primary thing that happens is insulting. Even here, its clear that far more people are turned off by the Baha'i that are turned on.

 

[CG Didymus]

Just like the Sun reappearing in the sky everyday. We call it by the different days of the week but it is the same sun which we see each day not seven suns in seven days. The Suns of Truth are the same sun of truth reappearing with a different name. But it is the same sun.

The manifestation were different men and said different things. The Sun is pretty consistent in what it does.

 

[loverofhumanity]

With Baha'i as the leaders of course.

Nothing to do with Baha’is. Baha’u’llah clearly states it is a matter for the worlds leaders. Where is Baha’i or Baha’i Faith mentioned in this quote? This clearly is not about Baha’is.

The time must come when the imperative necessity for the holding of a vast, an all-embracing assemblage of men will be universally realized. The rulers and kings of the earth must needs attend it, and, participating in its deliberations, must consider such ways and means as will lay the foundations of the world’s Great Peace amongst men. Such a peace demandeth that the Great Powers should resolve, for the sake of the tranquillity of the peoples of the earth, to be fully reconciled among themselves. Should any king take up arms against another, all should unitedly arise and prevent him. If this be done, the nations of the world will no longer require any armaments, except for the purpose of preserving the security of their realms and of maintaining internal order within their territories. This will ensure the peace and composure of every people, government and nation. (Baha’u’llah)

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And what about Siva and Shakti and Hanuman and Surya and Kubera and Ganesha and Rama and Vishnu and Ganapati and Ayyappan. What did they all say?

If we read what Baha'u'llah offered, we soon find what all past manifestations offered.

There is one book that contains the Essence of all past Scriptures.

The Hidden Words | Bahá’í Reference Library

"HE IS THE GLORY OF GLORIES

THIS is that which hath descended from the realm of glory, uttered by the tongue of power and might, and revealed unto the Prophets of old. We have taken the inner essence thereof and clothed it in the garment of brevity, as a token of grace unto the righteous, that they may stand faithful unto the Covenant of God, may fulfill in their lives His trust, and in the realm of spirit obtain the gem of divine virtue."

Regards Tony