Homosexuality and religious.

[Trailblazer]

Not according to their personal testimony, as many didn't even find out about the homophobia until after they had signed up. It was kept secret from newcomers as long as possible. Are you calling them liars?

I was not told either, but my point still stands.
Baha'is who really believe in Baha'u'llah do not question His Laws, just because they don't like them.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Why should we lie? I don't hate gay people.

Look back through nearly 3,000 posts in this thread -- the number of ways that religious people have tried to say (politely), "surely there's some way we can make queers go away" (you just tried with genetics) speaks volumes. While you're; afraid to say "I hate queers," you display an absolute desperation to make them outliers, to belittle, to deny, anything that will fuilfill your hope that we cease to exist.

But why you're at it. Why don't you say..

"I just wish one -- ONE -- member writing in the forum would just be honest for half a moment and say "I hate religious people," and get it out of their system.

Instead of the endless chipping away and not allowing another person just to live with their faith. Does it give you all pleasure? Does it make you feel much better about yourselves, because you "have no faith"

C'mon, RFers, for just one second, MAN UP and say it.

I don't hate religious people. In the last couple of days, I have made references -- on RF -- to religious people (Quakers, a United Church Minister) who have helped me enough to earn not only my gratitude, but also my respect and love. I have written -- right here on RF -- of religious groups who have found the humanity to examine their former teaching, and change it because they realized thait it is the right thing to do.

So, no, I don't hate religious people. I hate bigots who hate me for something over which I have no control.

And that now includes you.

 

[We Never Know]

I just wish one -- ONE -- member writing in the forum would just be honest for half a moment and say "I hate Queers," and get it out of their system.

The endless chipping away at allowing another person just to live with a little dignity, does it give you all pleasure? Does it make you feel much better about yourselves, because you're "normal?"

C'mon, RFers, for just one second, MAN UP and say it.

What I can't figure out is if youns just want to live a peaceful normal life, why do things that draw attention to you and put you in the spotlight. Like gay pride parades, gay pride month, gay pride flags, etc.

I'm straight and I don't have a straight pride flag, a straight pride parade, a straight pride month, etc.
I don't want them.and don't need them.

 

[We Never Know]

Look back through nearly 3,000 posts in this thread -- the number of ways that religious people have tried to say (politely), "surely there's some way we can make queers go away" (you just tried with genetics) speaks volumes. While you're; afraid to say "I hate queers," you display an absolute desperation to make them outliers, to belittle, to deny, anything that will fuilfill your hope that we cease to exist.

I don't hate religious people. In the last couple of days, I have made references -- on RF -- to religious people (Quakers, a United Church Minister) have helped me enough to earn not only my gratitude, but also my respect and love. I have written -- right here on RF -- of releigious groups who have found the humanity to examine their former teaching, and change it because they realized thait it is the right thing to do.

So, no, I don't hate religious people. I hate bigots who hate me for something over which I have no control.

And that now includes you.

I don't hate ya. But if you want to feel I do that's your choice. A wrong choice but your choice. Maybe you are wrong about others hating you to.
One thing I've learned in life is "not agreeing with what someone does doesn't mean you hate them."

 

[dybmh]

All people who drink alcohol are required to stop drinking per the law. That targets a class of people, people who drink alcohol.

It's not really comparable. Not all Baha'i are required to be celibate, only gay people. All people are required to abstain from alcohol. The difference is between a law targetting some people, vs. all people.

Children of Baha'i families are not born as Baha'is, they have to choose. Children cannot choose to be Baha'is until they are 15 years old, which is considered the age of reason.

Good to know, thank you

 

[Trailblazer]

Is every pleasure, like say eating a piece of pie, (really serves no purpose, not even very healthy) not condoned by God. I get great pleasure out of walking in nature. Is that a sin?

No, pleasures are not prohibited. In fact, they are encouraged as long as they are allowed under the law and they do not intervene between us and God.

“Should a man wish to adorn himself with the ornaments of the earth, to wear its apparels, or partake of the benefits it can bestow, no harm can befall him, if he alloweth nothing whatever to intervene between him and God, for God hath ordained every good thing, whether created in the heavens or in the earth, for such of His servants as truly believe in Him. Eat ye, O people, of the good things which God hath allowed you, and deprive not yourselves from His wondrous bounties. Render thanks and praise unto Him, and be of them that are truly thankful.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 276

 

[Vinayaka]

I was not told either, but my point still stands.
Baha'is who really believe in Baha'u'llah do not question His Laws, just because they don't like them.

I think that's like joining any club because it portrayed itself as something that it wasn't. Are you saying that just because you joined up you should be loyal the rest of your life? No right to change your mind?

 

[Vinayaka]

No, pleasures are not prohibited. In fact, they are encouraged as long as they are allowed under the law and they do not intervene between us and God.

“Should a man wish to adorn himself with the ornaments of the earth, to wear its apparels, or partake of the benefits it can bestow, no harm can befall him, if he alloweth nothing whatever to intervene between him and God, for God hath ordained every good thing, whether created in the heavens or in the earth, for such of His servants as truly believe in Him. Eat ye, O people, of the good things which God hath allowed you, and deprive not yourselves from His wondrous bounties. Render thanks and praise unto Him, and be of them that are truly thankful.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 276

God's law? Seems rather arbitrary to me for God to determine what should be pleasure and what shouldn't. But sure, that des help explain your POV.

 

[Trailblazer]

It's not really comparable. Not all Baha'i are required to be celibate, only gay people. All people are required to abstain from alcohol. The difference is between a law targetting some people, vs. all people.

That is true, but I do not consider it as targeting since people can choose to be a Baha'i or not and they know what the laws are before they join. Moreover, what they do in the privacy of their own homes is not monitored. It is between them and God.

 

[Trailblazer]

I think that's like joining any club because it portrayed itself as something that it wasn't.

The Baha'i Faith did not portray itself as something it wasn't. The laws are all in the Aqdas.

Are you saying that just because you joined up you should be loyal the rest of your life? No right to change your mind?

No, I am not saying that. Anyone can change their mind and some do.

 

[Vinayaka]

The Baha'i Faith did not portray itself as something it wasn't. The laws are all in the Aqdas.

But the members who were introducing new members kept the more controversial things hidden, that much is fact. Either that or the ex-Baha'i I have dialogued with are liars. In fairness, the new members didn't do their research. Most people would, although you yourself admit you didn't either, as you didn't know about it until later.

 

[Trailblazer]

dear god, what a truly idiotic and irrelevant straw man, why do I bother.

I see that you obfuscated because you cannot explain how gay people can produce children by having sex with each other.
Obfuscation is common atheist tactic but it doesn't slip by me unnoticed.

 

[Trailblazer]

Did I claim that?

Did I ever say that you claimed that? NO, I did not say you claimed that.
I claimed that.

You said they have children. Yes, but only if they adopt children.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

What I can't figure out is if youns just want to live a peaceful normal life, why do things that draw attention to you and put you in the spotlight. Like gay pride parades, gay pride month, gay pride flags, etc.

I'm straight and I don't have a straight pride flag, a straight pride parade, a straight pride month, etc.
I don't want them.and don't need them.

Try thinking. How many campaigns are ongoing around the world saying "heterosexuality is wrong, heterosexuals should be jailed, or killed?" How many -- I'll take just an estimate? Compare that to the rhetoric around the wordl, including right here at home, against homosexual. Back in the 1960s, just for example, that would include most of the western world (as well as the all those backward countries that are still there). Would you not, if that were the case, stand up and fight for the righrt to be who you are? Or would you crumble and meekly find yourself a same-sex partner?

No, you don't get it because you NEVER SUFFERED IT. Nobody ever tried to shame you because you had a crush on a person of the opposite sex. Nobody ever refused to rent you an apartment, or cater your wedding, because you wanted to marry somebody of the opposite sex.

Well, that's what we lived. Pride days aren't about "pride." Pride days are our ways of saying to a world full of bigots, "F You! We are not going to be ashamed of being who we are, who we must be." You don't have to do that. And that makes you 100% IGNORANT about the subject you are discussing.

And if ignorance makes you look foolish in a discussion, well, that's on you.

 

[We Never Know]

Try thinking. How many campaigns are ongoing around the world saying "heterosexuality is wrong, heterosexuals should be jailed, or killed?" How many -- I'll take just an estimate. Back in the 1960s, just for example, that would include most of the western world (as well as the all those backward countries that are still there). Would you not, if that were the case, stand up and fight for the righrt to be who you are? Or would you crumble and meekly find yourself a same-sex partner?

No, you don't get it because you NEVER SUFFERED IT. Nobody ever tried to shame you because you had a crush on a person of the opposite sex. Nobody ever refused to rent you an apartment, or cater your wedding, because you wanted to marry somebody of the opposite sex.

Well, that's what we lived. Pride days aren't about "pride." Pride days are our ways of saying to a world full of bigots, "F You! We are not going to be ashamed of being who we are, who we must be." :You don't have to do that. And that makes you 100% IGNORANT about the subject you are discussing.

And if ignorance makes you look foolish in a discussion, well, that's on you.

"Pride days are our ways of saying to a world full of bigots, "F You!"

Then why complain about being put in the spotlight and drawing attention when that's exactly why you do it?

 

[dybmh]

That is true, but I do not consider it as targeting since people can choose to be a Baha'i or not and they know what the laws are before they join. Moreover, what they do in the privacy of their own homes is not monitored. It is between them and God.

The word I keep coming back to in my mind is "shame". Shoghi Effendi reports that Baha'u'llah spoke against homosexuality as shameful. This shame, imo, is amplified by requiring homosexuals to remain in hiding.

Regarding whether a Baha'i knows the rules: is there a standardized process for conversion into Baha'i? Is a new person expected to read the law in advance of enrollment?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I see that you obfuscated because you cannot explain how gay people can produce children by having sex with each other.
Obfuscation is common atheist tactic but it doesn't slip by me unnoticed.

Here's a deep, dark, hidden, unkown, never-before-heard-of secret for you -- please don't tell anyone, keep it strictly to yourself.

IVF! (It stands for "in vitro fertilization"). Surrogate! A whole range of reproductive technologies.

But shh! Nobody must ever know.

By the way, I wonder how, since you are so very observant, IVF, surrogate pregnancies and other reproductive technologies slipped by you unnoticed. Were you in the little girl's room when they came up in class?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

"Pride days are our ways of saying to a world full of bigots, "F You!"

Then why complain about being put in the spotlight and drawing attention when that's exactly why you do it?

And there you have it folks -- how to take things out of context to try to win a point.

I am allergic to hateful people. You're on ignore.

 

[Trailblazer]

But the members who were introducing new members kept the more controversial things hidden, that much is fact. Either that or the ex-Baha'i I have dialogued with are liars. In fairness, the new members didn't do their research. Most people would, although you yourself admit you didn't either, as you didn't know about it until later.

I do not know what the requirements are to becoming a Baha'i nowadays. I became a Baha'i in 1970 and all that was required of me is to sign a card stating that I believed in Baha'u'llah. The Aqdas had not even been published in English at that time. All I knew of were the basic laws.

As you said, if it was important to them to know these things they should have done their research.
However, no matter how much research one does they are likely to find out some things they don't like later and then they have to decide if they still want to be a Baha'i given what they found.

I only found out one thing that I did not like after I became a Baha'i but with further research I was able to reconcile it.

 

[We Never Know]

And there you have it folks -- how to take things out of context to try to win a point.

I am allergic to hateful people. You're on ignore.

How did I take this out of context?

""Pride days are our ways of saying to a world full of bigots, "F You!"

Why not say its our way of showing we love each other, that we are happy, etc.

But instead you say "Pride days are our ways of saying to a world full of bigots, "F You!"