Homosexuality and religious.

[CG Didymus]

I do not read it that way CG. I read it that mankind has to embrace the Oneness of humanity and work towards unity.

This is such a Councel I see needs to be embraced.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 115-116

We will all struggle with the laws, as we were raised in the decadence of an unbridled liberty of the sexual revolution.

Regards Tony

Okay, they embrace we are all one and work towards unity, but... what do you do with people that have behaviors that don't fit in with the majority of society? Will a Baha'i society allow complete acceptance of gays? I don't see how. The gays will be breaking a Baha'i law. If they continue to break it, what will Baha'is do?

 

[Aupmanyav]

The Bab was not educated in religion. The most learned divine in Persia could not match the knowledge.
I offer, read the proof given as to why Vahid did become a Babi. Did you not the Bab replied to an unasked question in a 2,000 verse reply, with no pause.

What were Bab or Bahaollah educated in? Nothing, except Injeel (Bible) and Quran or Arabic. Not just Bab, even Bahaollah had not studied in any Islamic religious institution. What is there in Abrahamic religions to learn? No learning when debate is disallowed. One does not need education to impress the credulous. Why did Bab require 2,000 verses without even being questioned? As soon as Siyyid came in, Bab started on his spiel! I do not require more than 4 lines to answer a question.

 

[CG Didymus]

Life is about learning CG. This topic will help the person that started it.

Regards Tony

But then why complain about getting so much negative reaction? I understand if you have to step away for a while, but what did Baha'is expect? They say love gays, and that they are not homophobic. But it's your religion that teaches that homosexuality is wrong, and it is forbidden for Baha'is to practice it. And if they join and are homosexual, that they should seek help.

Baha'is don't like being called homophobic, but would "anti-homosexual" be any better? Because the Baha'i Faith is definitely not "pro-homosexual".

 

[F1fan]

Condescending is part of the 'us versus them' attitude. There are only two groups here ... Baha'i and non-Baha'i. Some unity that is.

Given what some of the Bahai have been saying the problem is non-believers. The Bahai have accepted what Baha'u'llah has written and won't question it. Baha'u'llah isn't a god, but they insist what he wrote is from the God. So to question any doctrine is essentially challenging God, and that is unacceptable. It's not even a possibility though faith.

The odd thing is that since God is absent, and don't punish anyone, a believer could show courage and rebel against doctrines in they wish. At worst they get thrown out of the religion. If God is in charge, it is a dictatorship, not any system where a human can propose a better idea. So a principled Bahai would stand up and protest. They would take the lumps as they come, because standing up against tyranny and cruelty is the honorable thing to do. Human history is marked by many people who stood up against evil, and they are remembered as heros. What better way to accomplish unity?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Okay, they embrace we are all one and work towards unity, but... what do you do with people that have behaviors that don't fit in with the majority of society? Will a Baha'i society allow complete acceptance of gays? I don't see how. The gays will be breaking a Baha'i law. If they continue to break it, what will Baha'is do?

CG, having the goals of Unity does not mean everyone, or anyone at this time has to become a Baha'i. That just will not happen in this current time.

The fist step is for the Governments to come together, set national boundaries, put a priority on disarmament and organise an international law enforcement policy and inforcement.

That process allows for Nations to set their own internal law and policies.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

But then why complain about getting so much negative reaction? I understand if you have to step away for a while, but what did Baha'is expect? They say love gays, and that they are not homophobic. But it's your religion that teaches that homosexuality is wrong, and it is forbidden for Baha'is to practice it. And if they join and are homosexual, that they should seek help.

Baha'is don't like being called homophobic, but would "anti-homosexual" be any better? Because the Baha'i Faith is definitely not "pro-homosexual".

Why brand any person? The law is the law for the Baha'i.

It is not a law anyone has to choose to follow, unless they accept that God has given a Message via Baha'u'llah, then they are faced with a different choice of lifestyle. That guidance offered, is that only a lawfully married man and women can be joined in a relationship.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The odd thing is that since God is absent, and don't punish anyone, a believer could show courage and rebel against doctrines in they wish. At worst they get thrown out of the religion.

A Baha'i will pray daily that we are not left to our own choices.

The majority of prayers will ask that God's Will be done and not ours. In fact I see that is the greatest prayer and aspiration anyone can have.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Sure, it acts as a sort of placebo.

To use Evangelical Christianity as an example. The person is told that God is real and loves them. And gave his only Son so that they could be saved from Satan and hell. And they say that salvation became necessary because of Adam's sin. Because of his disobedience, all people have inherited a sin nature.

Any of that real? And does it matter? The person believes it is true and lives their life as if it is true. But, if the Baha'is are correct in their beliefs, most of those Evangelical beliefs are wrong and not true. Which sort of makes Christianity nothing but a placebo. But then again, is any organized religion real and not a placebo?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

What were Bab or Bahaollah educated in? Nothing, except Injeel (Bible) and Quran or Arabic. Not just Bab, even Bahaollah had not studied in any Islamic religious institution. What is there in Abrahamic religions to learn? One does not need education to impress the credulous. Why did Bab require 2,000 verses without even being questioned? As soon as Siyyid came in, Bab started on his spiel! I do not require more than 4 lines to answer a question.

You will also note that Vahid was not able to talk and had forgotten what he was to ask. This is reported by many witnesses who also had the same experiences, especially with Baha'u'llah, the most proud of men, who came in to chastise Baha'u'llah, could only stand there and say nothing.

So they are all good questions Aupmanyav, but I see it best to leave that alone though.

Once bitten, twice shy!

I am happy for you, that you can answer all enquiries in 4 lines or less.

Regards Tony

 

[F1fan]

A Baha'i will pray daily that we are not left to our own choices.

So you chose daily to pray so you won't be left to your own choices?

Why don't you trust yoruselves? Who told you that you can't trust yourself? You chose Bahai, maybe THAT was a huge error.

The majority of prayers will ask that God's Will be done and not ours. In fact I see that is the greatest prayer and aspiration anyone can have.

So you're gambling that what happens to you is God's will? You chose not to get a colonoscopy and get colon cancer and die because that is God's will?

You do realizing YOU are CHOSING to gamble on God's will, yes?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So you chose daily to pray so you won't be left to your own choices?

Why don't you trust yoruselves? Who told you that you can't trust yourself? You chose Bahai, maybe THAT was a huge error.


So you're gambling that what happens to you is God's will? You chose not to get a colonoscopy and get colon cancer and die because that is God's will?

You do realizing YOU are CHOSING to gamble on God's will, yes?

All the best and goodbye F1fan.

You to yours, Me to mine,
Others will do as so inclined.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Why brand any person? The law is the law for the Baha'i.

It is not a law anyone has to choose to follow, unless they accept that God has given a Message via Baha'u'llah, then they are faced with a different choice of lifestyle. That guidance offered, is that only a lawfully married man and women can be joined in a relationship.

Regards Tony

The law is proclaimed to be from the one true God. And brought to us by his latest manifestation. Whose teachings are true and infallible and will last for 1000 years. So, how you label or "brand' the teachings of the Baha'i Faith concerning homosexuality? Pro-gay or anti-gay? Don't like those? Then how would you describe the teachings? What can a Baha'i say when asked, "How do Baha'i feel about homosexuality? Is it okay? Is it normal? Or do Baha'is believe it is wrong and, like Christians, believe it is a sin?" I think lot of people might come away thinking the Baha'i Faith is anti-gay. And that's not a good label or "brand" for a religion to have these days. But if it is what you believe, then accept it.

 

[CG Didymus]

It was recorded as it was recorded 2000 years ago.

The events happened as the happened in the 1800's

The two are complimentary, or they are not.

The Revelation of Muhammad is mentioned in the Bible, or it is not.

Our Choices CG.

Regards Tony

It's not that clear. Did the infallible prophet come up with the interpretation of Daniel or just a man and his best guesses? Then there is Abdul Baha saying that the "Three Woes" are Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah. Sorry, I disagree with his interpretation. To me, it doesn't fit the context.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

It's not that clear. Did the infallible prophet come up with the interpretation of Daniel or just a man and his best guesses? Then there is Abdul Baha saying that the "Three Woes" are Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah. Sorry, I disagree with his interpretation. To me, it doesn't fit the context.

The law is proclaimed to be from the one true God. And brought to us by his latest manifestation. Whose teachings are true and infallible and will last for 1000 years. So, how you label or "brand' the teachings of the Baha'i Faith concerning homosexuality? Pro-gay or anti-gay? Don't like those? Then how would you describe the teachings? What can a Baha'i say when asked, "How do Baha'i feel about homosexuality? Is it okay? Is it normal? Or do Baha'is believe it is wrong and, like Christians, believe it is a sin?" I think lot of people might come away thinking the Baha'i Faith is anti-gay. And that's not a good label or "brand" for a religion to have these days. But if it is what you believe, then accept it.

As you can choose to do CG. I only wish you all the best, stay safe, stay happy.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Yet you are the one who assigns meaning and authority to your religion, so it is your choice.

That's right, it is my choice for the reason you gave.

Yet you have decided to be a part of Baha'i despite its prejudice against gays,

I am not going to throw out the entire religion just because of one Law, even if I do not agree with it.

so that makes you complicit and in agreement with it, unless you protest this law to your religion's hierarchy. This is like the "I was just following orders" excuse. There must be something you agree with to keep quiet, because how it is just and moral to gays?

It would not make any difference if I protested to the UHJ as they cannot change the Laws of Baha'u'llah.
Probably some Baha'is have probably tried that already.

I do not need an excuse. If I agree with the Law I have right to agree with it, just as you have a right to disagree with it. I believe it is just and moral because it came from God who is infallible, whereas any human conception of what is just and moral is fallible, since humans are fallible.

 

[Trailblazer]

You convinced me about opinions. Thank you. I'm not sure about attitude, though. The def you provided said "typically one that is reflected in a person's behavior." Typically. Not always reflected in a "person's" behavior. I propose that if someone is known as jealous, that's their attitude.

Exodus 34:14 For you must not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.

Therfore, God has an attitude

With all due respect, I believe that many verses in the Old Testament anthropomorphize God and turn God into a human. I do not believe that God is ever jealous since God has no competition. I think that verse was meant to convey that we should worship the one true God rather than false gods that do not even exist.

All that said, I believe that God has a mind and emotions but God does not think or feel the way humans think and feel since God is not a human.

 

[Trailblazer]

You have your standard of morality based on 1st or 7th Century beliefs. The way society looks at LGBTQ has changed in the meantime.

The way society looks at sexuality has nothing to do with what is moral since society does not determine what is moral, God does.

 

[Sheldon]

The other solution is to accept the teaching and realize it was not a mistake because it came from God, and an infallible God cannot make any mistakes.

That's not a choice when the teachings violate logic and the law of non-conteadiction. Like claiming gay people are an immoral sexual abberation, and that gay people are evil and should be purged etc, then trying to claim the religion doesn't discriminate.

 

[Sheldon]

I have no problem promoting the Baha’i standard on family and married life as it is based on the survival of our species

Manifestly untrue.

No harm is done by standing for what is in humanity’s best interests.

Promoting hate speech and homophobia is demonstrably not in humanity's best interest.

Every child must have a mother and a

Nonsense, you already know this isnt true. Two mothers, or two fathers works just as well, as long a child is loved and nurtured, and not fed dangerous prejudice, they'll likely grow into well adjusted adults.

to deprive it of either is in my view positively dangerous

Your view is absurdly prejudiced though, as you're forcing it through the nasty doctrine of homophobia your religion promotes. That's what is dangerous, and does real harm.

 

[Sheldon]

I have thoughts as to what that is so, which I see is beginning to be reflected in studies. I will not offer them here though.

Yes, you wouldn't want to pretend you're after candid debate. Just espousing vapid platitudes and unevidenced anecdotes.