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Who was Joseph Smith to you?

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
The church in which I was raised had the stated belief that God stopped using prophets after a certain point. Apparently, this is a widely held belief, and that may be behind some of the responses.
Yes, you are abolutely right. Virtually all Christians except the Latter-day Saints believe this to be the case. Oddly, they cannot provide any Biblical reason for believing it, nor can they explain why Christ personally called prophets if He had no intention of speaking to His Church through them.

To echo Pete, I have respect for all the Mormons I have met. Without exception, they have been hard working, values-driven people, the kind I would count as reliable friends.
Thank you. That's very nice to hear. :)


My current beliefs reject the idea of prophets. Anytime someone says, "God told me to tell you...", I immediately wonder why God didn't just tell me. Going through an agent adds no value - especially when God doesn't need to - and it adds all sorts of downside risk.
God can just tell you. Each of us is entitled to personal revelation in matters pertaining to our personal lives. God calls prophets, though, to direct the affairs of His Church as a whole, and not the lives of individual people. As Paul explained, without prophets and apostles, Christ's message and the doctrines He taught would be left up to individual interpretation and we would be like "children,
tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine." With no prophets and apostles on the earth for over 1700 years, we ended up with 30,000+ different Christian denominations.


 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
That's understandable. Joseph Smith said that he wouldn't have believed it either, if it hadn't happened to him. Just out of curiosity, though, do you believe in the Virgin Birth of Jesus Christ? How is the idea that God could cause a Virgin to become pregnant with His Son easier to believe than the idea that God could send a heavenly messenger to direct someone to an ancient record testifying of His Son?

That's a good question. I await Pete's answer...
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
A man who struggled with how to answer the question of why so many paths. I do believe God's grace was trying to get his attention, but I do not believe he responded properly.
And what do you think God was trying to tell him, Victor? Do you think that, had God's grace been able to get his attention, it would have told Him to convert to Roman Catholicism? Of course, you don't believe that what Joseph said happened to him really did happen to him. I wish you'd just said that instead of suggesting that Joseph somehow misunderstood or ignored the message God gave him. If Joseph was telling the truth about his 1820 encounter with God, it would have been pretty hard for him to respond any differently than he did.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
And what do you think God was trying to tell him, Victor? Do you think that, had God's grace been able to get his attention, it would have told Him to convert to Roman Catholicism? Of course, you don't believe that what Joseph said happened to him really did happen to him. I with you'd just said that instead of suggesting that Joseph somehow misunderstood or ignored the message God gave him. If Joseph was telling the truth about his 1820 encounter with God, it would have been pretty hard for him to respond any differently than he did.

I believe something happened to him. I wouldn't know what that is, but I know God moves people to do all sorts of things. But as I said, some people don't always respond accordingly.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
As a Christian who embraces the Trinity, naturally, I'm a bit cautious of Joseph Smith's teachings as his views on the Godhead are not trinitarian.
No they're not, but then neither were the apostles' views. :)

I'm not convinced that Joseph Smith wasn't a good man, though. I've read bits of the Book of Mormon and have felt the Holy Spirit. His message, for the most part, is clearly similar to the core of many Christian beliefs...salvation is found in Christ.
I'm glad to hear that -- particularly coming from one of the most "Christian" Christians on the forum.

I simply don't find his revelations to be necessary for my walk with Christ. I'm also a bit cautious of Smith because because I believe there is quite a bit of mystery to the very nature of God. Joseph Smith answers a lot of questions and in truth, I'm not really comfortable with that. "Great is the mystery of Godliness." I don't believe that humans were meant to have all the answers to God and His nature, while here in the flesh.
I don't think we were meant to have all the answers, either, Dawny, but I do believe we've made God out to be far more of a mystery than He ever intended to be. I believe Christ's contemporaries understood Him (i.e. His nature and the relationship between the Father, Son and Holy Ghost) much more accurately than did any living soul 400 years later.

Clearly though, Joseph Smith has had a positive effect on many lives. There are many beautiful people who are an active part of the church he founded. And these people have found Christ and are sharing God's message of love.

So, in this light...maybe Smith was a prophet to those who needed his messages to find their way to Christ.
I certainly can't argue with you there. As a noted LDS scholar stated, "The only truth we can know is the truth that works." If Mormonism doesn't "work" for you, you are probably best in following your own heart.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
I don't get when people say Joseph Smith was inspired and yet aren't LDS. :confused:
That's an easy question to answer -- at least from the LDS perspective. ;) Here are a couple of statements from past LDS leadership that may help you understand how we would look at Mohammed, for instance.

In 1978, President Spencer W. Kimball and the First Presidency issued the following statement: “The great religious leaders of the world such as Mohammed, Confucius, and the Reformers, as well as philosophers including Socrates, Plato, and others, received a portion of God’s light. Moral truths were given to them by God to enlighten whole nations and to bring a higher level of understanding to individuals.”

B. H. Roberts had previously stated: “While the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is established for the instruction of men, it is ONE of God’s instrumentalities for making known the truth; yet God is not limited to that institution for such purposes, neither in time nor place. He raises up wise men and prophets here and there among all the children of men, of their own tongue and nationality, speaking to them through means that they can comprehend... always giving that measure of truth that the people are prepared to receive. Mormonism holds, then, that all the great teachers are servants of God among all nations and in all ages. They are inspired men, appointed to instruct God’s children according to the conditions in the midst of which he finds them… Whenever God finds a soul sufficiently enlightened and pure; one with whom His Spirit can communicate, lo! He makes of him a teacher of men.”

 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
That's understandable. Joseph Smith said that he wouldn't have believed it either, if it hadn't happened to him. Just out of curiosity, though, do you believe in the Virgin Birth of Jesus Christ? How is the idea that God could cause a Virgin to become pregnant with His Son easier to believe than the idea that God could send a heavenly messenger to direct someone to an ancient record testifying of His Son?
I don't discount that miracles happened and do not feel that they can not happen now.

Unfortunately, I don't find this particular story to be believable. It smacks me of being fabricated and then covering up the fabrication. I don't find your faith in it to be unreasonable though. It's just that I can't leap to that particular conclusion given the history behind it.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
That's an easy question to answer -- at least from the LDS perspective. ;) Here are a couple of statements from past LDS leadership that may help you understand how we would look at Mohammed, for instance.

In 1978, President Spencer W. Kimball and the First Presidency issued the following statement: “The great religious leaders of the world such as Mohammed, Confucius, and the Reformers, as well as philosophers including Socrates, Plato, and others, received a portion of God’s light. Moral truths were given to them by God to enlighten whole nations and to bring a higher level of understanding to individuals.”

B. H. Roberts had previously stated: “While the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is established for the instruction of men, it is ONE of God’s instrumentalities for making known the truth; yet God is not limited to that institution for such purposes, neither in time nor place. He raises up wise men and prophets here and there among all the children of men, of their own tongue and nationality, speaking to them through means that they can comprehend... always giving that measure of truth that the people are prepared to receive. Mormonism holds, then, that all the great teachers are servants of God among all nations and in all ages. They are inspired men, appointed to instruct God’s children according to the conditions in the midst of which he finds them… Whenever God finds a soul sufficiently enlightened and pure; one with whom His Spirit can communicate, lo! He makes of him a teacher of men.”


Refer to post #38....:)
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
Hard for me to believe that Joseph Smith was complicit in the Mountain Meadow Massacre after he was dead (MMM was in the 1850s, JS died in the 1840s), but I won't stop you from believing it. FYI, Joseph Smith never saw Utah.
Jonny,

hopefully you accepted my earlier apology. If you missed it, again I apologize for mixing up the names. It was Brigham Young who was a driving force behind the Mountain Meadow Massacre. Like Joseph Smith, his name is synonymous with the Latter Day Saints. Like all men, including those God chooses to use, these men had their faults as do I.
 

cardero

Citizen Mod
*CITIZEN MOD*

Please remember that the OP requested a friendly discussion about what Joseph Smith meant to each individual. Though I appreciate the momentum and attention that this thread has garnered, it is difficult to debate such a position unless someone creates a new thread or moves this thread in the appropriate Debate Section.
 
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Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
It was Brigham Young who was a driving force behind the Mountain Meadow Massacre. Like Joseph Smith, his name is synonymous with the Latter Day Saints. Like all men, including those God chooses to use, these men had their faults as do I.
You're right about one thing: The Latter-day Saints have never claimed that any of our prophets have been perfect. Brigham Young clearly had his faults. Sanctioning the Mountain Meadows Massacre, however, was not one of them.

From the Encyclopedia of Mormonism:

Here is the story of the tragic events which transpired in the summer of 1857: The Mormon pioneers, having been forceably driven from their homes in Illinois in mid-February of 1846, had in 1847, finally arrived in the Salt Lake Valley, where they had come to worship God without the persecution they had endured since the Church was founded in 1830. They were, at this time, working at colonizing the West. In 1857, Utah was not a state but a territory. As the events unfolded, a large contingent of US troops was marching towards the Utah Territory. Despite having been the federally appointed territorial governor, Brigham Young was not informed by Washington of the army's purpose, and interpreted the move as another surge of persecution of the Latter-day Saints. Anticipating an imminent attack, he declared the territory to be under martial law and ordered the Saints to stand ready to defend themselves.

Part of Brigham's strategy was to enlist the local Indian tribes as allies. He had not long before made a statement urging the settlers to try to gain the confidence and trust of the Indians, saying, "they must learn that they have either got to help us or the United States will kill us both."

Meanwhile, a group of non-LDS emigrants were headed for California. Due to the lateness of the season, they had decided to take a southern route, which would take them through the town of Cedar City and thirty-five miles beyond it to Mountain Meadows. This area was fairly well-known as a good place for travelers to stop and rejuvenate themselves before starting off into the vast desert that lay between the Utah Territory and the Pacific Coast. This particular party was made up of a diverse group of about 120 people, most of whom were from Arkansas.

As the emigrants made their way from Salt Lake City towards Cedar City, tensions arose between them and both the Mormons and the Indians. Spurred by rumors, their own observations and memories of the horrible attrocities which had been perpetrated against them in the past, Mormon residents in and around Cedar City were anxious to take action against the travelers -- even though the travelers themselves were innocent of any wrong-doing against the Mormons. Ultimately, however, they decided to hold off until they were able to contact Brigham Young and ask for his blessing in doing so. They dispatched a messenger on September 7 to make the nearly 300-mile (one-way) trip to Salt Lake. He made the trip in just over three days.

Within about an hour after meeting with Brigham Young, the messenger was back on his way to Cedar City with a letter from Brigham Young with the following statement:

"In regard to the emigration trains passing through our settlements, we must not interfere with them until they are first notified to keep away. You must not meddle with them. The Indians we expect will do as they please, but you should try and preserve good feelings with them."

The messenger arrived back in Cedar City on September 13. By that time, nearly all of the men, women and children who had been on their way to California had been slaughtered by the Mormons and the Indians. (About eighteen children were spared.) It was a tragic, senseless act of violence commited by a group of people who undoubtedly knew better but who had, for whatever reasons, let their desire for revenge override their common sense and religious training. As more information became available, several of the principle participants were formally excommunicated from the Church.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Great.. This is an excellent opportunity. If we can all remain mature and be very candid and honest, I think we'll end up liking each other a lot more.
I think it will be a great opportuity, too. The interesting thing to me is that several years ago on another forum, a poster made a huge deal of the similarities he saw between LDS doctrine and tha Kabbalah. He accused Joseph Smith of plagiarism so remarkable were the similarities. I didn't have enough information back then to even argue the point. I still don't, but I'd be interested in seeing what I can find this time around.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
I think he is a kook, because of some of the doctrines he tried to push.
Would you mind stating which doctrines, specifically, you have in mind. I'm just curious.

I think he was a Genius because of the success he had in pushing them.
Maybe he was a genius. If so, I think that's beside the point. The doctrines he taught make a lot of sense to a lot of people. In the more than 160 years since his death, those doctrines are more widely accepted than most people back in 1843 (the year of his death) would have ever dreamed possible. If it was just his genius that made the doctrines he taught take hold, the Church would have disintegrated rapidly upon his death instead of growing as quickly as it has. Today, two-thirds of the Church's 12 million members are first-generation converts. Not too bad for a dead man.

I also think he is crazy for betraying his masonic oaths, which is probably what got him killed.
Exactly what did he do to betray his Masonic oaths?

im not trying to pass judgement on the man, but from what i see, there are serious problems in the things he said and that his followers currently believe

im not gonna get into details because a debate isnt neccessary here, it is just opinion, please dont be offended by me
I'm not quite that easily offended. Besides, I've heard people say a lot worse. ;)
 

Comprehend

Res Ipsa Loquitur
Exactly what did he do to betray his Masonic oaths?

shared what was taught in lodge (if he did so). The penalty of such is death in a particular manner which is not storming a jail and shooting him by the way... but I won't divulge the method...
 

RevOxley_501

Well-Known Member
shared what was taught in lodge (if he did so). The penalty of such is death in a particular manner which is not storming a jail and shooting him by the way... but I won't divulge the method...


the method you refer to is cutting him from ear to ear and opening his bowels so that they spill outward


nonetheless, i believe there were masonic rings on the guns of the men who shot him.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
nonetheless, i believe there were masonic rings on the guns of the men who shot him.
Considering the fact that a lot of the men in 19th century Illinois were Masons, that wouldn't surprise me. But there were close to 200 men in the mob that stormed the jail and I kind of have a hunch that the number of Masons involved was fairly proportionate to the general population. I'm not saying I know this for sure. Do you have information about this group of men that I'm unaware of?
 

Comprehend

Res Ipsa Loquitur
I don't discount that miracles happened and do not feel that they can not happen now.

Unfortunately, I don't find this particular story to be believable.
so you are selective in the outlandish miracles you believe. Virgin birth.... yep. Angel leads kid to ancient record...... nope.

What evidence are you aware of for the virgin birth?

It smacks me of being fabricated and then covering up the fabrication. I don't find your faith in it to be unreasonable though. It's just that I can't leap to that particular conclusion given the history behind it.

uh, yes. And the virgin birth also smacks of being fabricated to cover something up. Isn't the most logical explanation obviously that Joseph got Mary pregnant? They got scared and made something up? There were some kids at my high school that tried claiming the same thing almost, they said they never had sex but she got pregnant.... uh huh... good one. How many magical virgin births are you aware of?

To say that the BOM story sounds fabricated but an unwed girl getting pregnant and then saying God did it sounds a little silly to me but hey... what do I know...
 

Comprehend

Res Ipsa Loquitur
the method you refer to is cutting him from ear to ear and opening his bowels so that they spill outward


nonetheless, i believe there were masonic rings on the guns of the men who shot him.

well as long as you are giving away masonic secrets you didn't finish all of it... you forgot the cable tow and the ocean...
 
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