...and now for something completely different: Free Will!

[Trailblazer]

Yes, I have some idea. I would have to experience it to really know.

I hope you never have to experience it.
All day long, I am saying the remover of difficulties and God sufficeth all things above all things prayers of the Bab.

 

[Alien826]

Something is still determined. God already knows but we don't, so it's still a test. And the test is necessary, because we wouldn't be the person we are meant to be without it. Testing doesn't just reveal character, it helps form character.

As I thought, you are using a different definition of "test". What you are describing is more like an educational exercise, or problem. Doesn't matter, I understand what you are getting at. All this is a training ground.

 

[Alien826]

That's pretty facile and weak reasoning, for someone claimed to be an omniscient deity. Were it true it would be another reason, if any beyond the complete dearth of objective evidence, to disbelieve any claims that he was anything but human. I mean if someone can't differentiate between pernicious behaviours like cheating on a partner, and murder, and ostensibly innocuous behaviours that are hard wired by evolution like lust and hate, then it would be absurd to suggest such a person was wise, let alone omniscient.

Yes.

In fact we could argue that without temptation (lets use lust as an example) we cannot be said to have good behavior. Isn't the person who feels lust and resists it more virtuous that someone who never feels it at all? (Actually I've never considered lust to be bad. Even when acted on it doesn't have to hurt anyone. But that's another subject.)

 

[Aupmanyav]

If God does not exist, then God cannot be to blame for anything. Logic 101.

True. God is a non-existent imagined entity, it cannot even wave away a fly because it does not exist. It is the belief in existence of God which creates all sort of problems.

 

[Alien826]

Those atheists abound on this forum. Like I said, whenever an atheist invokes God and states what God does or does not do, they are referring to God. There is no get out of jail free card.

You are just repeating the same thing.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. Atheists want a free pass, they want to be able to say any damn thing about God and then they say no God exists. Tat is logically incoherent because a nonexistent entity cannot be responsible for anything.

Of course not. But do you really not understand the idea of disagreeing with a claim someone else makes and assuming that it is true in order to point out the logical discrepancies? These atheists are not saying bad things about God, just about someone else's claims about God.

No, that is not the reason. God needs no cheerleaders because God has no needs at all.
Only humans and other animals have needs.

So what is the reason? You told me God made us so we would worship him. Seems a little odd if he has no wish or need for worship. A being that has no needs still needs a reason for what it does, no?

The person who sets it of is to blame.

That would be the person who treads on it. Would you like to rethink that?

Thanks. My life has been one tragedy after another, and by all rights I should have lost my faith in God long, long ago, but I have sustained my faith with the help of friends like my bff @Truthseeker.

I have known many people who get through life's troubles better with a faith in God.

However, some improvement might be on the way.

I do hope so.

The argument that atheists make -- that God can eliminate suffering so God should eliminate suffering -- is logically incoherent.

Only when you put it that way. The Problem of Evil says that God should eliminate suffering if he is all benevolent. A god that didn't do that would not be benevolent, but could perfectly well exist.

This is what atheists do not understand. Atheists think omnipotent means that God can do anything, which really means God should be doing everything they expect Him to do. They do not understand what omnipotence really means. It means that God can do anything but God only does what God chooses to do.

“Say: O people! Let not this life and its deceits deceive you, for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will. He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth.” Gleanings, p. 209

Why should an omnipotent/omniscient God do what humans expect Him to do? How could any human know more than God regarding what is best for humans?

Well, that works I suppose. If everything is beyond our understanding, we should just shut up. Do you ever think, though, that we might be in the hands of an evil God? I can't think of a more frightening idea, an omnipotent God that wasn't kindly disposed towards us.

 

[Alien826]

Nope.... the Bible explicitly says he gives eternal life to those that believe.
Two options here: hell isn't considered life, or hell is actually just ceasing to exist. And yes there's higher stakes here than cake so the reward is bigger and the consequences of rejecting it more serious.
Of course if you believe in purgatory, there may be another chance to change course. But why not take the cake now? There's no down side.

I'll just address the last sentence. First, I can't make myself believe something. Second, which of the myriad gods do I choose to believe in? By your rules, if I get it wrong I'm screwed. Third, doing all this would be a monumental waste of time if there really is no god. Is that enough downside?

Actually if it does all turn out to be true, I think I'll just say that I tried to figure it out, and tried to live a good life, and if that isn't enough then so be it.

 

[Trailblazer]

You are just repeating the same thing.

And I will keep repeating it.

Of course not. But do you really not understand the idea of disagreeing with a claim someone else makes and assuming that it is true in order to point out the logical discrepancies? These atheists are not saying bad things about God, just about someone else's claims about God.

It is the same thing. When they talk about God they are talking about God.

So what is the reason? You told me God made us so we would worship him. Seems a little odd if he has no wish or need for worship. A being that has no needs still needs a reason for what it does, no?

The reason God wants us to worship Him, as I think I told you before, is because it is beneficial for us to worship Him.

That would be the person who treads on it. Would you like to rethink that?

Yeah, I already did and I admitted to @KWED I made a mistake in what I said.

I have known many people who get through life's troubles better with a faith in God.

Yes, I think that most people do.

I do hope so.

So do I. Hope springs eternal. A life without hope is no life at all.

Only when you put it that way. The Problem of Evil says that God should eliminate suffering if he is all benevolent. A god that didn't do that would not be benevolent, but could perfectly well exist.

I do not buy into The Problem of Evil. I consider it absurd to expect God to eliminate suffering just because He can.

Well, that works I suppose. If everything is beyond our understanding, we should just shut up. Do you ever think, though, that we might be in the hands of an evil God? I can't think of a more frightening idea, an omnipotent God that wasn't kindly disposed towards us.

No, I never think that. It makes no sense that God would be evil, because if God was evil, we would not still be here, since God could have wiped us all out long ago, but God does not do that because God loves us.
No, I can't think of a more frightening idea, an omnipotent God that wasn't kindly disposed towards us.

 

[Truthseeker]

Sorry you could not sleep Duane.... I don't have trouble falling asleep, but I have trouble waking up too early and not being able to go back to sleep.

I still have not gone to sleep yet. Typical. Happens every time.

 

[Truthseeker]

I hope you never have to experience it.
All day long, I am saying the remover of difficulties and God sufficeth all things above all things prayers of the Bab.

Sorry.

 

[CG Didymus]

I have known many people who get through life's troubles better with a faith in God.

And did it matter what they believed about God? If their concepts about who God is are different, then it's not the same God. The Baha'i concept is very different than a Trinitarian Christian's. But they both believe their God is helping them and guiding them. Is God just a placebo?

 

[Truthseeker]

And did it matter what they believed about God? If their concepts about who God is are different, then it's not the same God. The Baha'i concept is very different than a Trinitarian Christian's. But they both believe their God is helping them and guiding them. Is God just a placebo?

I agree it doesn't really matter that much what peoples specific idea of God's nature is, as long as it is helpful to their spiritual being and does productive things for mankind. It's a fallacy to say that when people have a different conception of God, it's a different God, though. They just have a different conception of the same God (or Gods if you like.)

 

[Aupmanyav]

They just have a different conception of the same God (or Gods if you like.)

No. Shiva and Vishnu are completely different Gods, and they are very different from your God of Abraham. They do not take recourse to middlemen, do not ask you to worship them, do not differentiate between those who worship them and those who don't.

 

[Truthseeker]

No. Shiva and Vishnu are completely different Gods, and they are very different from your God of Abraham. They don't send messengers, do not ask you to worship them, do not differentiate between those who worship them and those who don't.

That's a very strange concept to me that a concept of God or Gods are actually different Gods that actually exist. Whatever.

 

[Aupmanyav]

That's a very strange concept to me that a concept of God or Gods are actually different Gods that actually exist. Whatever.

This is because you have been raised in religions which say that there is only one God. In Hinduism, we have thousands of Gods and Goddesses.

As for actual existence of these entities, I personally do not believe in it at all, whether one God or thousands of Gods and Goddesses.

 

[Truthseeker]

As for actual existence of these entities, I personally do not believe in it at all, whether one God or thousands of Gods and Goddesses.

Then actually, we agree, in my opinion. It is all semantics. What you believe has no effect on the situation, and neither does mine.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Then actually, we agree, in my opinion. It is all semantics. What you believe has no effect on the situation, and neither does mine.

Really? You think existence or non-existence of God and his so-called messengers makes no difference in the situation, and it is all semantics. You have started realizing that the God theory has many holes. Good progress.

 

[Trailblazer]

In Hinduism, we have thousands of Gods and Goddesses.

but in reality there is only one God.

 

[KWED]

Hate leads to murder but even if it doesn't it still is wrong.

The Bible states that god hates. So either god is wrong or hate is not wrong. Which is it?

and lust to cheating,

Wrong again. As a single man, I have had a few lustful encounters with single women. No cheating involved.

And this is interesting and odd coming from people who want the police to arrest people for their political opinion.

Interesting. Who wants to do that?

 

[KWED]

Only when you put it that way. The Problem of Evil says that God should eliminate suffering if he is all benevolent. A god that didn't do that would not be benevolent, but could perfectly well exist.

I would not call myself "all benevolent" by any stretch of the imagination, but if I could cure even one child dying in agony from a congenital condition, I would.
IMHO the problem of evil does not require an all benevolent god to work, merely one who isn't a total sadist/sociopath.

 

[Aupmanyav]

but in reality there is only one God.

However, other than in old books, there is no evidence for any of them, one or many.
Samkhya - Wikipedia