Isaiah 53 and Human Sin

[rosends]

Again, you are claiming that teams of translators, working together to produce hundreds of English translations alone, misinterpreted the Hebrew either deliberately or because they lack Hebrew knowledge--this despite how a number of Jewish scholars came to the work after trusting Messiah and after modern translations have referred their work to non-Messianic rabbis for check-ups. For example, the NASB even had JWs and Mormons on boards so the Word could be used in outreach to these cults more effectively.

I'm claiming that the translations you are presenting include words that are simply not in the Hebrew. All you need to do is show me how the translators got to what they got, in light of the actual hebrew of the verse. That you can't do that speaks volumes. And if the only way to get to something is "after trusting Messiah" then that means that they abandoned the actual text and interpreted with a messianic agenda. Thank you for confirming.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Have you ever looked at the seven appointed times of Lev 23 to compare them with the two advents of Jesus Christ?

I have not compared them.
I didnt know what the two advents of Jesus means. I've now looked it up.

Are you talking about comparing Leviticus with the first and second coming of Jesus?

 

[BilliardsBall]

I'm claiming that the translations you are presenting include words that are simply not in the Hebrew. All you need to do is show me how the translators got to what they got, in light of the actual hebrew of the verse. That you can't do that speaks volumes. And if the only way to get to something is "after trusting Messiah" then that means that they abandoned the actual text and interpreted with a messianic agenda. Thank you for confirming.

I didn't say what I cannot do or can do. Your elitist concepts are the issue. I guarantee I have more Greek then you do, why should I accept anything--even ONE thing--you say about the New Testament?

Either address my actual point--you are making outrageous claims that hundreds of translators over the past 500 years are all liars--or go away.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I have not compared them.
I didnt know what the two advents of Jesus means. I've now looked it up.

Are you talking about comparing Leviticus with the first and second coming of Jesus?

Google Lev 23 and Jesus's coming and return and you will be astonished with the hidden meanings.

 

[rosends]

I didn't say what I cannot do or can do. Your elitist concepts are the issue. I guarantee I have more Greek then you do, why should I accept anything--even ONE thing--you say about the New Testament?

If i say anything about the gospels, feel free to question the translation that I use, and explain how the Greek doesn't mean what I say. What's wrong with that? If I have information from a translator which justifies what I post, I'll let you know. Is it "elitist" to know a language and explain how particular translations are actually interpretations because the words included aren't in the original?

Either address my actual point--you are making outrageous claims that hundreds of translators over the past 500 years are all liars--or go away.

I am making the claim that the translation you cite is wrong and I'm showing the Hebrew to justify my critique. Instead of simply hiding behind the fact that a large number of translations make the same error so it must be right, why not learn a little something and choose to question when something doesn't make sense.

Or, I guess, you can just keep runnig away.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Google Lev 23 and Jesus's coming and return and you will be astonished with the hidden meanings.

The concept you are suggesting is that the seven feasts are in reference to Jesus. Some from his first visit, and some will happen on his future return.

The connecting that I found on Google is vague. Would need to further investigate the connections for more credibility to consider. Its a long stretch. But I do think the feasting has different meaning.


Like perhaps fasting is not fasting, it has been misunderstood.

"Speak unto all the people of the land, and to the priests, saying, When ye fasted and mourned in the fifth and seventh month, even those seventy years, did ye at all fast unto me, even to me?

And when ye did eat, and when ye did drink, did not ye eat for yourselves, and drink for yourselves?

Should ye not hear the words which the Lord hath cried by the former prophets, when Jerusalem was inhabited and in prosperity, and the cities thereof round about her, when men inhabited the south and the plain? " Zechariah.



So perhaps Jesus understood the words differently and continued to eat and drink while others were "fasting".


And they said unto him, Why do the disciples of John fast often, and make prayers, and likewise the disciples of the Pharisees; but thine eat and drink? Luke.



Maybe fasting is like a famine.

Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord: Amos.


Food for thought.

Perhaps the iron pan does have flour mingled with oil with the meat of sheep.
As the four directions.

South - North - West - East
Iron - Brass - Silver - Gold
Iron - Bread - Oil - Wine
Iron - Cattle - Goats - Sheep

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Google Lev 23 and Jesus's coming and return and you will be astonished with the hidden meanings.

Regarding the connecting to the return of Jesus.

Are you able to explain how verses about the man coming to rule with a rod of iron is Jesus?



"And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God". Revelation.

"And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne". Revelation


It doesnt seem to be talking about Jesus.
Seems to be Jesus talking about someone else.

As in this verse:

And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. Revelation.

I cant find any Christian interpretation other than its about Jesus coming back to rule with a rod of iron.
But other translations of that verse also suggest otherwise with only slight variation.

"even as I myself have received authority from my Father".

"just as I have received this from My Father".

"As I also have received authority [and power to rule them] from My Father".

"[his power over them shall be] like that which I Myself have received from My Father".


It seems Jesus is talking about someone else coming with a rod of iron.

 

[BilliardsBall]

The concept you are suggesting is that the seven feasts are in reference to Jesus. Some from his first visit, and some will happen on his future return.

The connecting that I found on Google is vague. Would need to further investigate the connections for more credibility to consider. Its a long stretch. But I do think the feasting has different meaning.


Like perhaps fasting is not fasting, it has been misunderstood.

"Speak unto all the people of the land, and to the priests, saying, When ye fasted and mourned in the fifth and seventh month, even those seventy years, did ye at all fast unto me, even to me?

And when ye did eat, and when ye did drink, did not ye eat for yourselves, and drink for yourselves?

Should ye not hear the words which the Lord hath cried by the former prophets, when Jerusalem was inhabited and in prosperity, and the cities thereof round about her, when men inhabited the south and the plain? " Zechariah.



So perhaps Jesus understood the words differently and continued to eat and drink while others were "fasting".


And they said unto him, Why do the disciples of John fast often, and make prayers, and likewise the disciples of the Pharisees; but thine eat and drink? Luke.



Maybe fasting is like a famine.

Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord: Amos.


Food for thought.

Perhaps the iron pan does have flour mingled with oil with the meat of sheep.
As the four directions.

South - North - West - East
Iron - Brass - Silver - Gold
Iron - Bread - Oil - Wine
Iron - Cattle - Goats - Sheep

It's not vague--I can recommend texts to read, for example, Tabernacles is dwelling in tents--God tented among the people who were themselves in tents. John 1 in the Greek is the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us: application--believers get new, durable, dynamic bodies when Jesus returns (Jesus demonstrated His new body during the Feast of Tabernacles!).

 

[BilliardsBall]

Regarding the connecting to the return of Jesus.

Are you able to explain how verses about the man coming to rule with a rod of iron is Jesus?



"And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God". Revelation.

"And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne". Revelation


It doesnt seem to be talking about Jesus.
Seems to be Jesus talking about someone else.

As in this verse:

And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. Revelation.

I cant find any Christian interpretation other than its about Jesus coming back to rule with a rod of iron.
But other translations of that verse also suggest otherwise with only slight variation.

"even as I myself have received authority from my Father".

"just as I have received this from My Father".

"As I also have received authority [and power to rule them] from My Father".

"[his power over them shall be] like that which I Myself have received from My Father".


It seems Jesus is talking about someone else coming with a rod of iron.

People talk about Heaven and final judgment when Jesus returns--omitting the hundreds of verses in both testaments about his millennial (1,000-year) rule on Earth, among the righteous and even those taking the Mark of the Beast who do not die in the armed conflicts of Armageddon.

For example, the Bible says the nations will come to the restored Israel to worship at appointed times--or suffer iron consequences!

 

[BilliardsBall]

If i say anything about the gospels, feel free to question the translation that I use, and explain how the Greek doesn't mean what I say. What's wrong with that? If I have information from a translator which justifies what I post, I'll let you know. Is it "elitist" to know a language and explain how particular translations are actually interpretations because the words included aren't in the original?

I am making the claim that the translation you cite is wrong and I'm showing the Hebrew to justify my critique. Instead of simply hiding behind the fact that a large number of translations make the same error so it must be right, why not learn a little something and choose to question when something doesn't make sense.

Or, I guess, you can just keep runnig away.

Not running from anything! You can start with your preferred Tanakh on the verse in question, since the reference you gave "Having taken a translation from this website, which I am told to have Orthodox Jewish credentials, I am referring to Genesis 22:8-14" is a dead link--so I don't know which Tanakh you are even quoting.

Of course, the issue is less ram or lamb or sheep than GOD WILL PROVIDE HIMSELF. Typical running, yes--stop running.

The other question you run from--asked about four or five times now--is whether HUNDREDS of Gentile translators who dedicate their lives to studying the source languages are ALL liars. In most cases, just admit you think the Jewish people made mistakes in writing Septuagint and move on!

 

[rosends]

Not running from anything! You can start with your preferred Tanakh on the verse in question,

Great! Here you go.

since the reference you gave "Having taken a translation from this website, which I am told to have Orthodox Jewish credentials, I am referring to Genesis 22:8-14" is a dead link--so I don't know which Tanakh you are even quoting.

I don't know what you are quoting from or what link you refer to. I have referred to the Hebrew and to the Aramaic (post 220).

Of course, the issue is less ram or lamb or sheep than GOD WILL PROVIDE HIMSELF. Typical running, yes--stop running.

And I keep asking you what word in the Hebrew leads you to understand the word "provide" and the word "himself". You can't answer so you lash out.

The other question you run from--asked about four or five times now--is whether HUNDREDS of Gentile translators who dedicate their lives to studying the source languages are ALL liars. In most cases, just admit you think the Jewish people made mistakes in writing Septuagint and move on!

So now you are saying that you are starting from the LXX. That's great -- you have abandoned any claim to knowing the Hebrew and can start to ask good questions. From what I can tell, the word in the Sept in question is ὄψεται . What does that word mean? It doesn't come up as "provide" when I run it through a translator, but something related to "see". And yet the English you prefer is "provide." So how do you justify that leap?

 

[WonderingWorrier]

It's not vague--I can recommend texts to read, for example, Tabernacles is dwelling in tents--God tented among the people who were themselves in tents. John 1 in the Greek is the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us: application--believers get new, durable, dynamic bodies when Jesus returns (Jesus demonstrated His new body during the Feast of Tabernacles!).

Interesting you mention the word became flesh and tabernacled among us.
Sounds like the bread as flesh, and the wine as blood that I mentioned earlier.

Group1 - Group2 - Group3
Bread - Oil - Wine
Flesh - Bone - Blood


The tent is associated with wickedness:
"For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand. I had rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God, than to dwell in the tents of wickedness". Psalm.

Also cattle:
"And Adah bare Jabal: he was the father of such as dwell in tents, and of such as have cattle". Genesis.

And brass:
"And he made fifty taches of brass to couple the tent together, that it might be one". Exodus.


Group1 - Group2 - Group3
Brass - Silver - Gold
Cattle - Goats - Sheep.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

People talk about Heaven and final judgment when Jesus returns--omitting the hundreds of verses in both testaments about his millennial (1,000-year) rule on Earth, among the righteous and even those taking the Mark of the Beast who do not die in the armed conflicts of Armageddon.

For example, the Bible says the nations will come to the restored Israel to worship at appointed times--or suffer iron consequences!

The man with the rod of iron is not Jesus.
Therefore the man on the horse who has a sword come out of his mouth is not Jesus.

Jesus talks about the man:

"And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

And I will give him the morning star".

Revelation 2:26-28



So these verses are not about Jesus:

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. Revelation

And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. Revelation

And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. Revelation.


Those verses are about someone else coming.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

For example, the Bible says the nations will come to the restored Israel to worship at appointed times--or suffer iron consequences!

Iron consequences?

Since the rod is for correction.
Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him. Psalm.

And Iron is the Earth, and above the earth is the heaven called brass.
And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron. Deuteronomy.

(Above brass is silver, and above silver is gold).

South - North - West - East
Iron - Brass - Silver - Gold

Perhaps the rod of iron is Earthly correction.

 

[wizanda]

omitting the hundreds of verses in both testaments about his millennial (1,000-year) rule on Earth

I'd be interested to see these verses.

For example, the Bible says the nations will come to the restored Israel to worship at appointed times--or suffer iron consequences!

Can you show where you believe this is stated also please.

In my opinion.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Great! Here you go.


I don't know what you are quoting from or what link you refer to. I have referred to the Hebrew and to the Aramaic (post 220).

And I keep asking you what word in the Hebrew leads you to understand the word "provide" and the word "himself". You can't answer so you lash out.

So now you are saying that you are starting from the LXX. That's great -- you have abandoned any claim to knowing the Hebrew and can start to ask good questions. From what I can tell, the word in the Sept in question is ὄψεται . What does that word mean? It doesn't come up as "provide" when I run it through a translator, but something related to "see". And yet the English you prefer is "provide." So how do you justify that leap?

You are saying לּוֹ isn't "himself"? Here are some uses: "Behold, thy brother Esau, as touching thee, doth comfort himself, purposing to kill thee." Who else was he comforting?

"Then Pharaoh sent and called Joseph, and they brought him hastily out of the dungeon: and he shaved himself, and changed his raiment, and came in unto Pharaoh." Joseph shaved someone other than himself?

"If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself." He leaves his wife and children and goes out to be someone else?

 

[BilliardsBall]

I'd be interested to see these verses.

Can you show where you believe this is stated also please.

In my opinion.

google is your friend here.

 

[BilliardsBall]

The man with the rod of iron is not Jesus.
Therefore the man on the horse who has a sword come out of his mouth is not Jesus.

Jesus talks about the man:

"And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

And I will give him the morning star".

Revelation 2:26-28



So these verses are not about Jesus:

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. Revelation

And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. Revelation

And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. Revelation.


Those verses are about someone else coming.

Scholars have acknowledged these words are about Christ for millennia, since the beginning.

 

[Muffled]

and I believe Christians are prejudiced beause they need to justify their inventions and feel worried that they can't. Aren't beliefs great?

I believe we do not have to be as far fetched as others who see thigs the way they wish to see them.

 

[rosends]

You are saying לּוֹ isn't "himself"? Here are some uses: "Behold, thy brother Esau, as touching thee, doth comfort himself, purposing to kill thee." Who else was he comforting?

What? I think you are trying to quote Gen 27:42 and the operative part is
וַתֹּ֣אמֶר אֵלָ֔יו הִנֵּה֙ עֵשָׂ֣ו אָחִ֔יךָ מִתְנַחֵ֥ם לְךָ֖ לְהׇרְגֶֽךָ
"And she said to him, here is Esau, your brother, being comforted about you, to kill you." (my translation)
Note that the word לּוֹ is NOT in the verse. What is in the verse is לְךָ֖ which, literally, means "to you" but Ramban exaplins a biblical practice of replacing a Bet with a Lamed so the word could be understood as "b'cha" which is "in (regards to) you". Now you are supporting the argument that l'cha means "himself" which is also, at least generally, wrong, but also undercuts what you thought your argument was about "lo".

That Hebrew word "lo" means "to him". If you want to derive or interpret that it means to a specific person, then say "according to my interpretation, it means..." and explain why. In the verse about the binding of Isaac, there is more than one male role so assuming a reflexive pronoun isn't inevitable.

"Then Pharaoh sent and called Joseph, and they brought him hastily out of the dungeon: and he shaved himself, and changed his raiment, and came in unto Pharaoh." Joseph shaved someone other than himself?

What a strange verse to quote -- here is the hebrew
וַיִּשְׁלַ֤ח פַּרְעֹה֙ וַיִּקְרָ֣א אֶת־יוֹסֵ֔ף וַיְרִיצֻ֖הוּ מִן־הַבּ֑וֹר וַיְגַלַּח֙ וַיְחַלֵּ֣ף שִׂמְלֹתָ֔יו וַיָּבֹ֖א אֶל־פַּרְעֹֽה

Note that the word you are defending, לּוֹ, isn't in this verse at all. In fact, the English is better rendered as "Thereupon Pharaoh sent for Joseph, and he was rushed from the dungeon. He had his hair cut and changed his clothes, and he appeared before Pharaoh."

Though even that is an interpretive choice about the exact meaning of vayigalach (and he shaved or and he was shaved). So, still nothing about "lo".

If you want to see the word לּוֹ, just look a few verses earlier -- וְשָׁ֨ם אִתָּ֜נוּ נַ֣עַר עִבְרִ֗י עֶ֚בֶד לְשַׂ֣ר הַטַּבָּחִ֔ים וַ֨נְּסַפֶּר־ל֔וֹ וַיִּפְתׇּר־לָ֖נוּ אֶת־חֲלֹמֹתֵ֑ינוּ אִ֥ישׁ כַּחֲלֹמ֖וֹ פָּתָֽר׃
A Hebrew youth was there with us, a servant of the prefect; and when we told to him our dreams, he interpreted them for us, telling each of the meaning of his dream.

"If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself." He leaves his wife and children and goes out to be someone else?

Ouch, another miss on your part.
Ex 21:4 in the Hebrew reads
אִם־אֲדֹנָיו֙ יִתֶּן־ל֣וֹ אִשָּׁ֔ה וְיָלְדָה־ל֥וֹ בָנִ֖ים א֣וֹ בָנ֑וֹת הָאִשָּׁ֣ה וִילָדֶ֗יהָ תִּהְיֶה֙ לַֽאדֹנֶ֔יהָ וְה֖וּא יֵצֵ֥א בְגַפּֽוֹ

Note! This verse actually has the word "lo" TWICE (I bolded it). But look at the English
If his master gave him a wife, and she has borne him children, the wife and her children shall belong to the master, and he shall leave alone.

The word "himself" is based on the final Hebrew word, "v'gapo" (which I assume to be related to guf, body, meaning "with his body" -- that is to the exclusion of any others).
גַּף (n-m) heb

1. 1. body, self (only in phrase, eg by himself)
   2. height, elevation

Source: מקור: Open Scriptures on GitHubCreator: יוצר: Based on the work of Larry Pierce at the Online Bible

So, again, you have done nothing to support your initial claim -- in fact, you provided 3 verses that completely contradict your claim! Well done.

What you really should have cited was Gen 33:17 in which Jacob, the only male character in the verse builds "for himself" a house. Strangely (and, man, am I having fun now!) the KJV has
And Jacob journeyed to Succoth, and built him an house

Where the hebrew word DOES mean "himself" the KJV has "him."

Try again?