Isaiah 53 and Human Sin

[Redemptionsong]

Jesus did not sit on the throne of David. He got crucified. He never reigned; even though he was crowned king before he died. In resurrection the curse of Coniah ends. That's how it ends. As improbable as it seems that God would bother with Jeconiah again, you can see that even though he was cursed. Yet in Babylon he was chosen again in a way as was his son Zerubbabel. This is God signifying that the Messiah would come from them.

Psalm 89 deals with the line of David. How it was chosen, rejected and would be redeemed.

Jesus can now sit on the throne of David without any curse if he wants. He is sitting on the right hand of the power of God in heaven currently.

So the royal line has not ended. Jesus came to restore it. The crown of thorns represents more than one curse. It represents all curses on humanity and also including the curse of Coniah. That's why it is a crown.

The royal line has not ended, because of Christ. But, as far as l can see, the curse on Jeconiah was never lifted because Jeconiah's seed never sat on the throne, nor ruled in Judah. Jesus, as we know, was not the seed (flesh) of Joseph. If Jesus was not the seed of Joseph, then he was not the seed of Jeconiah!

If you look at the genealogy in Luke, you'll notice that Jeconiah is not mentioned. Yet, Zarubbabel, who is said to be the son of Pedaiah [1 Chron.3:17,19], does appear.

The point l was making is that Matthew's Gospel, on its own, is not enough to establish the legitimacy of Jesus as a 'royal'.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

The crown of thorns represents more than one curse. It represents all curses on humanity and also including the curse of Coniah. That's why it is a crown.

A crown of thorns sounds familiar.

Thorn and wine.

As a thorn goeth up into the hand of a drunkard, so is a parable in the mouths of fools. Proverbs.


The crown.

Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty is a fading flower, which are on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine! Isaiah.


Thorn and wine and stubble

For while they be folden together as thorns, and while they are drunken as drunkards, they shall be devoured as stubble fully dry. Nahum.



Group1 - Group2 - Group3
Brass - Silver - Gold
Corn - Oil - Wine
Cattle - Goats - Sheep
Lion - Leopard - Wolf
Straw - Dust - Stubble.
Spear - Sword - Bow

The lion eats straw with the Ox (Group1) , as the goat and the leopard eats dust (Group2), and the Wolf eats stubble with the lamb (Group3)


The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord. Isaiah



Dust is sword Group2.
Stubble is bow Group3

Who raised up the righteous man from the east, called him to his foot, gave the nations before him, and made him rule over kings? he gave them as the dust to his sword, and as driven stubble to his bow. Isaiah.


And straw is spear Group1.

Rebuke the company of spearmen, the multitude of the bulls, with the calves of the people, till every one submit himself with pieces of silver: scatter thou the people that delight in war. Psalm.



Jesus seems to know.
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. Matthew.

 

[74x12]

The point l was making is that Matthew's Gospel, on its own, is not enough to establish the legitimacy of Jesus as a 'royal'.

Each of the lineages of Jesus, that in Matthew and the one in Luke have their purpose. We know his true and most important lineage is that he was born of God. But, Matthew's lineage is important. Either way he had to face and overcome the curse of Coniah to establish his legitimacy. This is what Psalm 89 is talking about. It shows how the line of David was cursed but would be still accepted and restored.

According to John the Baptist; God could turn stones into the sons of Abraham. (matthew 3:9) This is also true of David or Jeconiah. That means Jesus need not even be fathered by Joseph to be a true son of David. Although obviously, Mary could also be descended from David.

According to Romans 1:3 Jesus was a Son of David according to the flesh. Although yes he is the Son of God by the holy Spirit.

If Jesus' lineage is said to go back to Jeconiah by Matthew then that is significant and can't really be ignored.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Each of the lineages of Jesus, that in Matthew and the one in Luke have their purpose. We know his true and most important lineage is that he was born of God. But, Matthew's lineage is important. Either way he had to face and overcome the curse of Coniah to establish his legitimacy. This is what Psalm 89 is talking about. It shows how the line of David was cursed but would be still accepted and restored.

According to John the Baptist; God could turn stones into the sons of Abraham. (matthew 3:9) This is also true of David or Jeconiah. That means Jesus need not even be fathered by Joseph to be a true son of David. Although obviously, Mary could also be descended from David.

According to Romans 1:3 Jesus was a Son of David according to the flesh. Although yes he is the Son of God by the holy Spirit.

If Jesus' lineage is said to go back to Jeconiah by Matthew then that is significant and can't really be ignored.

I consider the explanation provided by R.A.Torrey [see post 140] to be pretty comprehensive. He explains the role of Jeconiah, and the prophecy of Jeremiah 22:30.

 

[Redemptionsong]

What do you mean "saved"? Is that different from whatever you mean when you say "salvation"? Is there a particular Hebrew word that you understand as "saved"? If you are talking redeemed from bondage (like a captive) that's a root like p-d-h, if you mean "rescued from a dangerous situation" then that might be h-tz-l (I'm not sure the exact 3 letter root here). If you mean a more spiritual sense, like being lifted up and restored to a position of spiritual importance, maybe you mean a y-sh-ayin root. Are you thinking more like "to save up"? That's ch-s-ch.

Using loose English words without coming to terms with what you actually mean leads to your confusion.

In order to be specific, here are just a few quotations on the subject of 'salvation', using just two Hebrew words, yeshuah (1) and yesha (2).

Psalms 69:29 (1)
Psalms 89:26 (1)
Psalms 98:3 (1)
Psalms 119:174 (1)
Isaiah 51:6 (1)
Isaiah 59:17 (1)
Isaiah 61:10 (2)
Jonah 2:9 (1)
2 Samuel 22:47 (2)
Micah 7:7 (2)
Habakkuk 3:18 (2)

Maybe you could explain to me what you understand lsaiah 51:6 to mean.

 

[BilliardsBall]

So you can't find it in the original and would rather run and hide behind other translators who also can't find it in the verse. I'm long used to Christians "inventing" interpretations without understanding the Hebrew text.

You expect people to believe that commonly accepted Jewish translations are inaccurate, and also that EVERY Gentile translator invents translations. No.

 

[BilliardsBall]

At first I thought the words didnt make sense but tried to keep an open mind. Listen carefully to the crazy.

I was having strange word coincidences with the text which I shrugged off still trying to keep an open mind until it kept happening so I started to write them down. The words were grouping.

The words showed me a different way to hear the mysteries. I followed them.

The strange sentences began speaking sense.
Even myths and fairytales outside the text started making sense.



Like the philosophers stone:

Yea, they made their hearts as an adamant stone, lest they should hear the law, and the words which the Lord of hosts hath sent in his spirit by the former prophets: therefore came a great wrath from the Lord of hosts. Zechariah

As being a philosopher listening to the words of the prophets.

Hearing a law.

"And Eleazar the priest said unto the men of war which went to the battle, This is the ordinance of the law which the Lord commanded Moses; Only the gold, and the silver, the brass, the iron, the tin, and the lead", Numbers


The law shows highest to lowest. Gold down to lead.

So the myth about the philosophers stone turning lead into gold does make sense scientifically.

By the lead and the gold of the law commanded to Moses.
Turning lead into gold would be turning low into high.


Seems there have been alchemists and scientists that have misunderstood the words.

Alchemists and scientists can misunderstand, but I find that historically, born again Christians haven't misunderstood the words of God for millennia!

 

[BilliardsBall]

While the Torah and Tanakh describe how animal sacrifices purified from unintentional sins and ritual impurity it never describes how God forgives greater sins without requiring a sacrifice. Jesus is the sacrifice for all. That's that. It's kind of the key to the puzzle. The missing piece. Now it all makes sense.

Amen!

 

[rosends]

In order to be specific, here are just a few quotations on the subject of 'salvation', using just two Hebrew words, yeshuah (1) and yesha (2).

Psalms 69:29 (1)
Psalms 89:26 (1)
Psalms 98:3 (1)
Psalms 119:174 (1)
Isaiah 51:6 (1)
Isaiah 59:17 (1)
Isaiah 61:10 (2)
Jonah 2:9 (1)
2 Samuel 22:47 (2)
Micah 7:7 (2)
Habakkuk 3:18 (2)

Maybe you could explain to me what you understand lsaiah 51:6 to mean.

Isaiah 51:6?
That explains how God will serve up spiritual improvement to the righteous (and judgment for wicked though the wicked are only mentioned in 51:5) which the righteous will merit through their obeying the Torah.

The root y-sh-ayin there is actually understood by some translators to refer to a victory but I don't see any source for that choice.

Ps 69:30 discusses showing faith that God will protect physically and spiritually (the Aramaic uses the same p-r-k root). There are 2 major understandings of the verse -- one that it is David writing about being protected when he was chased by Avshalom, and the other is that this speaks of the future faith of the people of Israel in exile.

89:26 has David acknowledge that his protection comes through his faith in God as the one who protects him.

98:3 (start in verse 1) discusses how God will achieved victory through miraculous events earned through people's faith. This is actually connected to Isaiah 59:16 and 17 which describes God's bringing his people out of exile even if they don't seem to deserve it. Verse 2 is a reference to Chron 1, 16:23, both relating to God's saving his people. Verse 3 highlights the people's faith as a demonstration of why God saves them.

Here is an entry from Klein on the root

ישׁע to deliver.
— Niph. - נוֹשַׁע was saved, was delivered, was helped.
— Hiph. - הוֹשִׁיעַ he saved, delivered, helped. [Moabite ישע (= to help), Arab. wasi‘a (= was capacious). cp. שׁוע.] Derivatives: הוֹשָׁעָה, הִוָּשֽׁעוּת, הוֹשַׁעֽנָא, יְשׁוּעָה, יֵשַׁע, הוֹשַׁעְנָא, מוֹשִׁיעַ, מוֹשָׁעָה, תְּשׁוּעָה.

יִֽשַׁע, יֶֽשַׁע m.n. deliverance, salvation, welfare. [From ישׁע.]


So what exactly is your question?

 

[rosends]

You expect people to believe that commonly accepted Jewish translations are inaccurate, and also that EVERY Gentile translator invents translations. No.

You expect people to believe that citing translations without knowledge of the source and being unable to explain (or understand for that matter) why the translations have things not found in the Hebrew is a reasonable approach?

No.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Isaiah 51:6?
That explains how God will serve up spiritual improvement to the righteous (and judgment for wicked though the wicked are only mentioned in 51:5) which the righteous will merit through their obeying the Torah.

The root y-sh-ayin there is actually understood by some translators to refer to a victory but I don't see any source for that choice.

Ps 69:30 discusses showing faith that God will protect physically and spiritually (the Aramaic uses the same p-r-k root). There are 2 major understandings of the verse -- one that it is David writing about being protected when he was chased by Avshalom, and the other is that this speaks of the future faith of the people of Israel in exile.

89:26 has David acknowledge that his protection comes through his faith in God as the one who protects him.

98:3 (start in verse 1) discusses how God will achieved victory through miraculous events earned through people's faith. This is actually connected to Isaiah 59:16 and 17 which describes God's bringing his people out of exile even if they don't seem to deserve it. Verse 2 is a reference to Chron 1, 16:23, both relating to God's saving his people. Verse 3 highlights the people's faith as a demonstration of why God saves them.

Here is an entry from Klein on the root

ישׁע to deliver.
— Niph. - נוֹשַׁע was saved, was delivered, was helped.
— Hiph. - הוֹשִׁיעַ he saved, delivered, helped. [Moabite ישע (= to help), Arab. wasi‘a (= was capacious). cp. שׁוע.] Derivatives: הוֹשָׁעָה, הִוָּשֽׁעוּת, הוֹשַׁעֽנָא, יְשׁוּעָה, יֵשַׁע, הוֹשַׁעְנָא, מוֹשִׁיעַ, מוֹשָׁעָה, תְּשׁוּעָה.

יִֽשַׁע, יֶֽשַׁע m.n. deliverance, salvation, welfare. [From ישׁע.]


So what exactly is your question?

If the salvation of God is 'forever' (lsaiah 51:6), and 'from generation to generation' (51:8) then why do you not view salvation as an eternal issue?

Life on earth is short; so how does a Torah Jew think he/she will gain eternal life?

 

[rosends]

If the salvation of God is 'forever' (lsaiah 51:6), and 'from generation to generation' (51:8) then why do you not view salvation as an eternal issue?

Life on earth is short; so how does a Torah Jew think he/she will gain eternal life?

One thing to start with is that the JPS (1985, not 1917 which is just a shadow of the KJV) translation of that section of 51:6 is "My victory shall stand forever,"

Since you have yet to define "salvation" and I have posited that it relates to a spiritual uplifting and perfection, and it relates to the eternal soul, especially in the judging after death, I'm not sure why you say I don't see it as an "eternal issue."

And what do you mean by "eternal life" that one has to gain it? Are you talking about the continuation of the soul's existence in the next world Olam Ha-Ba or are you talking about a physical life with the soul's returning to the actual body? https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1127503/jewish/The-Resurrection-Process.htm

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Alchemists and scientists can misunderstand, but I find that historically, born again Christians haven't misunderstood the words of God for millennia!

Yeah.
We all know that no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.

Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh. James.


The fountain of salt water.


Oh that my head were waters, and mine eyes a fountain of tears, that I might weep day and night for the slain of the daughter of my people! Jeremiah


Tears as a living fountain.

For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes. Revelation.


I am a living fountain. My tears taste salty.


Perhaps the fountain of youth has been misunderstood by scientists.
Go, and say to Hezekiah, Thus saith the Lord, the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will add unto thy days fifteen years. Isaiah.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

but I find that historically, born again Christians haven't misunderstood the words of God for millennia!

People are listening to a speech that cant be heard.

As Jesus says.

Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. John.


But it could potentially be heard.

And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. Mark.

 

[BilliardsBall]

You expect people to believe that citing translations without knowledge of the source and being unable to explain (or understand for that matter) why the translations have things not found in the Hebrew is a reasonable approach?

No.

I always appreciate looking for subtleties in the original Bible languages. I do not appreciate people who reject hundreds of translators who worked hard all their lives with "they all lie".

It's stock in trade for non-Messianic Jewish brothers to say all Gentiles are liars. Please stop.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Yeah.
We all know that no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.

Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh. James.


The fountain of salt water.


Oh that my head were waters, and mine eyes a fountain of tears, that I might weep day and night for the slain of the daughter of my people! Jeremiah


Tears as a living fountain.

For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes. Revelation.


I am a living fountain. My tears taste salty.


Perhaps the fountain of youth has been misunderstood by scientists.
Go, and say to Hezekiah, Thus saith the Lord, the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will add unto thy days fifteen years. Isaiah.

Crying is cathartic, releases toxins, and has health benefits, but speaking of good water--the gigantic gorgeous green area around Jericho in Israel--in the midst of the rugged Judean wilderness--all comes from the spring the prophet blessed--about 3,000 years ago!

The Bible is both literal and figurative, but we must start with the natural and obvious--kill an animal for your sin--look at the altar drenched in blood--look at Jesus's shed blood--before adding figurative interpretation.

 

[rosends]

I always appreciate looking for subtleties in the original Bible languages. I do not appreciate people who reject hundreds of translators who worked hard all their lives with "they all lie".

Well, I pointed out the subtlety here -- that the word you quoted isn't in the original. Somehow, you don't find that interesting. That seems to be the SOP for misled Christians, to believe in mistranslations without investigating them. Don't worry -- I'll be here to point out all your mistakes

 

[WonderingWorrier]

The Bible is both literal and figurative, but we must start with the natural and obvious--kill an animal for your sin--look at the altar drenched in blood--look at Jesus's shed blood--before adding figurative interpretation.

Consider the flesh and the blood.

As the bread is my flesh and the wine is my blood.

Group1 - Group2 - Group3
Bread - Oil - Wine
Flesh - Bone - Blood

And Oil is my bones.

Bread is as flesh (Group1), Wine is as blood (Group3).

Oil is as bones (Group2).

As he clothed himself with cursing like as with his garment, so let it come into his bowels like water, and like oil into his bones. Psalm.


This is about the corn, the oil, and the wine that I showed earlier.
And the earth shall hear the corn, and the wine, and the oil; and they shall hear Jezreel. Hosea


In the KJV bible they translated the word to corn as it was the old english word for grain.

Group1 - Group2 - Group3
Corn - Oil - Wine

This is the connection

Bread - Oil - Wine
Corn - Olive - Grape

Wine is from the grape, oil is from the olive, and bread is from the corn/grain.

It is flesh and blood, bread and wine. Two ways of saying the same things.


Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. John.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Consider the flesh and the blood.

As the bread is my flesh and the wine is my blood.

Group1 - Group2 - Group3
Bread - Oil - Wine
Flesh - Bone - Blood

And Oil is my bones.

Bread is as flesh (Group1), Wine is as blood (Group3).

Oil is as bones (Group2).

As he clothed himself with cursing like as with his garment, so let it come into his bowels like water, and like oil into his bones. Psalm.


This is about the corn, the oil, and the wine that I showed earlier.
And the earth shall hear the corn, and the wine, and the oil; and they shall hear Jezreel. Hosea


In the KJV bible they translated the word to corn as it was the old english word for grain.

Group1 - Group2 - Group3
Corn - Oil - Wine

This is the connection

Bread - Oil - Wine
Corn - Olive - Grape

Wine is from the grape, oil is from the olive, and bread is from the corn/grain.

It is flesh and blood, bread and wine. Two ways of saying the same things.


Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. John.

Yes, there is type in shadow in the Hebrew scriptures for NT pictures. Thank you.

Have you ever looked at the seven appointed times of Lev 23 to compare them with the two advents of Jesus Christ?

 

[BilliardsBall]

Well, I pointed out the subtlety here -- that the word you quoted isn't in the original. Somehow, you don't find that interesting. That seems to be the SOP for misled Christians, to believe in mistranslations without investigating them. Don't worry -- I'll be here to point out all your mistakes

Again, you are claiming that teams of translators, working together to produce hundreds of English translations alone, misinterpreted the Hebrew either deliberately or because they lack Hebrew knowledge--this despite how a number of Jewish scholars came to the work after trusting Messiah and after modern translations have referred their work to non-Messianic rabbis for check-ups. For example, the NASB even had JWs and Mormons on boards so the Word could be used in outreach to these cults more effectively.