Atheists: If God existed would God……

[Sheldon]

Any cancer researcher would laugh in your face because they would never say God causes cancer, they would know better.

Know? I think you might be oversimplifying this scenario. For a start there are many different kinds of cancer, and the "causes" can be complex, since there might be various contributing factors. However the existence of a deity that created everything would rationally infer it created the causes and if it's omniscient knew absolutely what the result would be.

 

[Sheldon]

Yes, many atheists have claimed that God is responsible for cancer on this thread and other threads. I don't have time to go back through this thread and find the posts.

This is demonstrably absurd, as atheists don't believe any deity or deities exist. I think you mean they have drawn a rational inference about a deity someone has imagined on here.

 

[Sheldon]

There is absolutely NO connection between God's foreknowledge of what is going to happen and God causing anything to happen.

There is if that deity can prevent it, and does nothing.

Also to suggest a deity is omnipotent but can't intervene without affecting human autonomy, logically suggests it can't be omnipotent. Choosing to nothing would logically infers it is culpable. This type of paradox is at the core of theodicy, that theologians have struggled with for millennia.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Wasn't MrB human?

Mr. B?

 

[ppp]

Do you really think I care what you think of the Baha'i Writings?
Think again.

 

[CG Didymus]

Narrative. Prose/ Designed to Instruct. True or fictitious.
Story.

Here's the synonyms:

account · story · tale · chronicle · history · description · record · portrayal · sketch · portrait · statement · report · rehearsal · recital · rendering
​

So, what Baha'u'llah wrote doesn't fit one of those?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Here's the synonyms:

account · story · tale · chronicle · history · description · record · portrayal · sketch · portrait · statement · report · rehearsal · recital · rendering
​

So, what Baha'u'llah wrote doesn't fit one of those?

It is a Revelation CG, plain and simple,no wordplay needed.

1a : an act of revealing or communicating divine truth. b : something that is revealed by God to humans. 2a : an act of revealing to view or making known. b : something that is revealed especially : an enlightening or astonishing disclosure shocking revelations.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Narrative. Prose/ Designed to Instruct. True or fictitious.
Story.

Maybe "scripture" is what she thinks they wrote. Which is, Narrative. Prose/ Designed to Instruct. True or fictitious.

 

[CG Didymus]

It is a Revelation CG, plain and simple,no wordplay needed.

1a : an act of revealing or communicating divine truth. b : something that is revealed by God to humans. 2a : an act of revealing to view or making known. b : something that is revealed especially : an enlightening or astonishing disclosure shocking revelations.

Regards Tony

Ah, "revelation". And depending on who's telling it... it could be true or fictious, and is written as a narrative, or story or a parable/metaphor. Like the NT book of Revelation?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Ah, "revelation". And depending on who's telling it... it could be true or fictious, and is written as a narrative, or story or a parable/metaphor. Like the NT book of Revelation?

The Bible warns us that will be the case CG and that we would have to make a choice.

We have to decide if it is God speaking to us or not.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

All the Messengers are both Divine and Human.

"... Even as He hath revealed: “No distinction do We make between any of His Messengers.” For they, one and all, summon the people of the earth to acknowledge the unity of God, and herald unto them the Kawthar of an infinite grace and bounty. They are all invested with the robe of prophethood, and are honored with the mantle of glory..."

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 50-56

Regards Tony

That's what I'm questioning, because in the Bible I see no reason to think Abraham or Moses were manifestations, both human and divine. And I don't see that Judaism or Christianity sees them that way. So, why do Baha'is? I think it is only because of the Baha'i belief in "progressive" revelation. Baha'is need to show a continuation of revelation from God through different manifestations. But then Baha'is have to make a lesser category of "prophet" to explain the many prophets in Judaism. But where did these prophets go? Are there still prophets around right now? Are there people in the Baha'is Faith that are believed to be prophets?

 

[CG Didymus]

The Bible warns us that will be the case CG and that we would have to make a choice.

We have to decide if it is God speaking to us or not.

Regards Tony

Yes, and how do we determine that? By the prophecies? No, too vague. By what the person wrote? Does it line up with what we know about God from what other religions believe? No, beliefs are all over the place. So sure, we can make a judgement call and decide that what the person said sounds like it came from God? But, by using those criteria, people believe in several different religions that claim to have a person that supposedly spoke to God. Still too vague.

 

[CG Didymus]

Know? I think you might be oversimplifying this scenario. For a start there are many different kinds of cancer, and the "causes" can be complex, since there might be various contributing factors. However the existence of a deity that created everything would rationally infer it created the causes and if it's omniscient knew absolutely what the result would be.

So, if we ask the question, if God existed... would he have created cancer? If this God created everything, then yes. But then why? It would have to be part of his overall plan. He wanted people to suffer and die. Which makes sense. He wants them to have to turn to him and believe in him. But some of those people that do believe in him get cancer. Why would that be? Ah, I know... he wants to make sure they really do believe in him even after the pain and suffering of having gotten cancer. The phony believers will curse God and deny he exists. But those good and true believers will love him and trust him to the painful end. Now just how wise is that? Does God know what he's doing or what? Or cells go bad and grow into tumors and end up killing the person.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That's what I'm questioning, because in the Bible I see no reason to think Abraham or Moses were manifestations, both human and divine. And I don't see that Judaism or Christianity sees them that way. So, why do Baha'is? I think it is only because of the Baha'i belief in "progressive" revelation. Baha'is need to show a continuation of revelation from God through different manifestations. But then Baha'is have to make a lesser category of "prophet" to explain the many prophets in Judaism. But where did these prophets go? Are there still prophets around right now? Are there people in the Baha'is Faith that are believed to be prophets?

I see all the Messengers are part of the One Holy Spirit CG. They all exist in the Spiritual World.

I imagine them as the Suns of creation. Every Sun we see in this reality, is a reflection of the Messengers of God.

I have previously offered this from Abdul'baha, have a read and you may see what I am thinking.

Tablet of the Universe (Lawh-i-Aflákiyyih)

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes, and how do we determine that? By the prophecies? No, too vague. By what the person wrote? Does it line up with what we know about God from what other religions believe? No, beliefs are all over the place. So sure, we can make a judgement call and decide that what the person said sounds like it came from God? But, by using those criteria, people believe in several different religions that claim to have a person that supposedly spoke to God. Still too vague.

That is entirely your choice CG.

For me it was to please my wife that I read a book that changed the entire direction of my life.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

I've known lots of Baha'is. That is not something any of the Baha'is I knew would ever say to anyone. Here's a Baha'is giving their thoughts about this...

We see humanity as one, one family.

Nobody is condemned for being of another religion, even Agnostics and Atheists are not condemned.

We focus in the well-being and progress of the human race.

We want others to join us in the Bahá'í principles, and we do not seek to convert others necessarily.

Teaching the Bahá'í Faith is much more than convert others, is to learn together, to grow together, to work together, to share together, etc. The Bahá'í teachings are not only for Bahá'ís, they are for the entire planet.

Bahá'u'lláh wrote: “Be fair in thy judgment, and guarded in thy speech”, so we do not judge other religious people.
​

The Baha'is I hung out with thought along these lines. Obviously, not all Baha'is think this way. But I don't think their own Scriptures would support them "not caring".

 

[CG Didymus]

The Bible warns us that will be the case CG and that we would have to make a choice.

We have to decide if it is God speaking to us or not.

Regards Tony

And, as I've argued/debated with Baha'is, the Book of Revelation makes it sound like the tribulations happen before Christ returns. Just how bad were things in 1844 as compared to now? To me, now we're in the tribulations. However, compared to the Christian beliefs, I'd much rather have the Baha'i Faith be true. The belief of fundy Christians has everybody but believers getting thrown into a fiery abyss.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And, as I've argued/debated with Baha'is, the Book of Revelation makes it sound like the tribulations happen before Christ returns. Just how bad were things in 1844 as compared to now? To me, now we're in the tribulations. However, compared to the Christian beliefs, I'd much rather have the Baha'i Faith be true. The belief of fundy Christians has everybody but believers getting thrown into a fiery abyss.

I can only offer that personally I see all those questions have been answered.

The quandary is one has to read the Revelation given in the Baha'i Writings.

I am now daily just more amazed how much foresight Abdul'baha and Shoghi Effendi had as to how the world would unfold. They only got that understanding from the Message given by Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

I see all the Messengers are part of the One Holy Spirit CG. They all exist in the Spiritual World.

I imagine them as the Suns of creation. Every Sun we see in this reality, is a reflection of the Messengers of God.

I have previously offered this from Abdul'baha, have a read and you may see what I am thinking.

Tablet of the Universe (Lawh-i-Aflákiyyih)

Regards Tony

Here's the first three paragraphs of about 28...

Praise be to God Who hath ever caused His Names and Attributes to penetrate the degrees of existence; Who hath made the effects of those Names and Attributes to shine resplendent and their signs to be firmly established in both the hidden and manifest worlds. By them He hath made the holy realities that are informed by His grace and are the recipients of His outpourings to be the sole revealers of all that pertaineth unto Him, and hath caused them to move through the firmament of perfection in arcs of descent and ascent. He hath ordained these Names and Attributes to be the first and foremost origin and cause of being in the world of creation and the source of the different grades of realities in the degrees of existence. When, through its power of attraction and propagation, the Day-Star of Names and Attributes shone upon the hidden realities in the heart of the unseen realm, they issued forth, were spread abroad, scattered about, set in order, became the recipients of the grace of God and His outpourings, and were made to be the sole manifestations of the Divine conditions and Eternal signs. Emerging from behind the veils, they appeared clothed in raiments of light, moving in the firmament of the unity of God, in orbits of sanctity and circles of glorification.



Thus the suns of the praise of the one true God moved resplendent in a vast, infinite space, capable neither of being defined by limits nor contained within the compass of signs and allusions. All praise be to Him Who was its Author and Creator, Who spread it out, and adorned it with countless lamps and never-fading luminaries: 'None knoweth the hosts of thy Lord save Him' (Qur'an, 74:31). He made the circuits of these luminous divine orbs to be their lofty and celestial spheres; and He made the bodies of these spiritual spheres to be subtle and soft, flowing and liquid, undulating and vibrating, in such manner that these refulgent orbs swim in the circumferences of the spheres, and move in their vast space by the aid of their Creator and Maker, their Ordainer and Fashioner.



Divine and all-encompassing Wisdom hath ordained that motion be an inseparable concomitant of existence, whether inherently or accidentally, spiritually or materially. This movement must be governed by some check or rein, some regulator or director, otherwise order will be disrupted and the spheres and bodies will fall from the heavens. For this reason God brought into being a universal attractive force between these bodies to hold sway over them and govern them, a force deriving from the firm ties, the mighty correspondence and affinity that exist between the realities of these limitless worlds. By the operation of this attractive force those holy and resplendent suns, with their luminous worlds, satellites and planets, circling and orbiting in their heavens, at once exerted attraction and were subject to it, induced motion and were themselves moved, began orbiting and set into orbit other bodies, shone forth and caused others to shine. In this manner they became arranged in a perfectly ordered system, each one a handiwork of consummate fashioning and manifest beauty, each one an enduring creation and a conclusive proof. Glory be to Him Who attracted them, laid firm hold on them, imbued them with effulgence, ordered them and set them in motion; and far from His glory be that which any of his creatures can affirm of Him or attribute to Him.
​

That's a lot of words. Do you have something that is more to the point? I don't think Abraham and Moses... or Adam and Noah, were manifestations. I wouldn't be surprised if they weren't even real, historical people. The point of the stories seems to be to get people to believe in a creator God and obey his rules. I can see why some Jews would believe these stories as true, even some Christians. But Baha'is don't take the stories as true, yet... they make some of the characters in those stories manifestations of God?

Like I said, the only reason I can is to support the Baha'i belief in progressive revelation. Which is fine for Baha'is, but I don't believe it. Again, people making up Gods and religions seems much more likely to me. And that eliminates any need to try and reconcile the differences and contradictions. Hindus can have their many Gods and incarnations and reincarnation. And Christianity can have their dying and rising savior God/man.

 

[CG Didymus]

I can only offer that personally I see all those questions have been answered.

The quandary is one has to read the Revelation given in the Baha'i Writings.

I am now daily just more amazed how much foresight Abdul'baha and Shoghi Effendi had as to how the world would unfold. They only got that understanding from the Message given by Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony

Reading the Baha'i revelation is part of the problem... It's too wordy and too flowery. A concise version of the teachings would be a much better place to start. Which book do you recommend? Maybe "Baha'u'llah and the New Era"? But not something by Shoghi Effendi. He is too wordy also.