Baha'i Vs. Christian Interpretation Of Gospels

[Redemptionsong]

I'm not certain what you mean by the 'internal integrity of scriptures'. It would be reasonable to consider there are common themes and internal consistency between the 66 books that make up the Christian Bible. There is evidence to support the historicity of some of what is written in the bible. Modern scholars are a diverse group including conservative Christians and atheists. Scholars need to have some capacity to critically evaluate Biblical texts. Uncritically accepting the texts as literal history and 'The Word of God' is not scholarship IMHO.

Well, there needs to be an honest and clear explanation as to why scholars differ widely in their dating of the books of the Bible.

What we are failing to hear about from prominent modern sceptics is the early dating given to the synoptic Gospels by those who accept the Bible as a book of prophecy. Believing in prophecy makes a huge difference to the position taken by scholars.

If you look to why modern scholars date the Gospels to after 70 CE you will see that the principle reason given is the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem. How, they ask, can Jesus (or the evangelist) have known about its destruction? The flip side of this argument is that the destruction of the temple was foreseen by Christ. Had the destruction occurred before the book of Acts was completed, which was after the Gospel of Luke was written, then the destruction would have been mentioned by Luke in Acts. As he says in the introduction to Acts, his account is made 'in order' i.e. chronologically. Most scholars agree that the events recorded in Acts end between 62-64 CE. This is about the time that Paul is executed in Rome. So the reason that the destruction of the temple is not recorded in the history of Acts is because it had not occurred! So, by this reckoning Luke's Gospel must have pre-dated 64CE, making Mark and Matthew even earlier.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Why do you think that people had a much greater memory back then?

They did not rely on digital gadget that remember for them nor did they have many books due to few knew how to write or read, so oral tradition was what they used to remember teaching.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The Gospel was good news and the news were meant to spread or passed on to next generations. It's not enough to announce that Jesus is the Messiah. People also have to know why. So biographical reports are part of the credo. Yes, the (first) gospel writers had only access to oral tradition and maybe some written notes. They believed it to be reliable.

The Bahai view from the Bahai scriptures:

1. Bible has never been corrupted.
2. It has been a sufficient guidance for the people of its Time, because God does not leave a people without a proper guidance.
3. It is divinely inspired, and contains many mysteries of God.
4. A great part of Bible is written in figurative language rather than literal, according to the will of God.
5. It could have minor inaccuracies, but those do not make a difference in the message and meanings it intends.

 

[Kenny]

" we don't know who wrote the Gospel."

What is most certainly true, everybody would agree, is that none of the four Gospels + the later books of the NT, are definitely not for sure spoken by and or written by and or authored by (Jesus) Yeshua- the Israelite Messiah, one gets to know, please. Right?

Regards

Yes... you are correct that Jesus didn't pen the words. But I don't think that was the point. Those who wrote the books either knew him personally or lived during the time that He was on this earth.

Some people would hold to that those who did write, penned the words under the "inspiration of the Holy Spirit" whom Jesus sent to live in them and to lead them and to teach them.

 

[PearlSeeker]

Coming to You means Jesus is coming to God. As with all verses it needs to be read in context.

This is a farewell speech and Jesus is praying to God -- Jesus is coming to God, His Holy Father, and He is asking God to keep the believers who God has given Him, that these believers may be one, as Jesus and God are one; one in spirit, one in faith, one in purpose, meaning that the believers will not be divided.

John 17 KJV

11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

Agree.

P. S.: I prefer standard version translations. They are easier to read and go back to the original languages.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Within spiritual practice they rely on oral tradition

I prefer more concrete evidence than some drunken campfire stories.

 

[Spirit of Light]

I prefer more concrete evidence than some drunken campfire stories.

They are not drunk........

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

They are not drunk........

Then they should be because most of the stories suck.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Then they should be because most of the stories suck.

 

[Trailblazer]

Agree.

P. S.: I prefer standard version translations. They are easier to read and go back to the original languages.

I usually refer to the KJV out of habit, but I can see what you mean having looked at a couple of the most popular standard versions as it is easier to understand what the actual meaning is.

John 17:4-6
King James Version

4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

Read full chapter

John 17:4-6
English Standard Version

4 I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.
6 “I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word.

Read full chapter

John 17:4-6
New Revised Standard Version Updated Edition

4 I glorified you on earth by finishing the work that you gave me to do. 5 So now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had in your presence before the world existed.
6 “I have made your name known to those whom you gave me from the world. They were yours, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word.

Read full chapter
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ESV
- I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do.
- And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.
- I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world.

NRSV
- I glorified you on earth by finishing the work that you gave me to do.
- So now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had in your presence before the world existed.
- I have made your name known to those whom you gave me from the world.

Everything in these verses is fully congruent with what Baha'is believe about Jesus and why Jesus came to earth. In short, Jesus came to earth to glorify God, that was the work God gave Jesus to do. Jesus has also manifested God on earth, and that is congruent with what Baha'is believe about Jesus, that He was a Manifestation of God.

Now, Jesus saying that He is going to return to God (from whence He came) to be glorified by the presence of God in the spiritual world. Please note that Baha'is believe that Jesus was with God in the spiritual world before He was sent to earth by God.

The Prophets, unlike us, are pre-existent. The soul of Christ existed in the spiritual world before His birth in this world. We cannot imagine what that world is like, so words are inadequate to
picture His state of being.
(Shoghi Effendi: High Endeavors, Page: 71)

I love analyzing things.

Look at this verse below, which says essentially the same thing as John 14, verses 4 and 6. Jesus is responding to the allegation that he is a king and saying (in His indirect way) that He is not a king, and then he says the purpose for which He came into this world, to bear witness to the truth. Jesus came into the world to bear witness to the truth about God!

John 18:37
English Standard Version

37 Then Pilate said to him, “So you are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. For this purpose I was born and for this purpose I have come into the world—to bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth listens to my voice.”

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With all due respect to Christian beliefs, I think that Christians have completely lost sight of why Jesus came into the world since they believe His main purpose was to save them from the original sin of Adam and Eve. Never did Jesus ever say that, it is a Church doctrine.

Moreover, most Christians believe that Jesus is the King Messiah who will return to earth to rule, but Jesus never said He was a king and Jesus never said He was going to return to earth. Jesus clearly said that He finished the work that God gave Him to do, so there would be no reason for Jesus to return to earth.

I have posted to Christians on forums for years, that is how I learned what I know, but not one Christian has ever been able to respond to my arguments, so I finally gave up.

Christians will continue to wait for Jesus to return because that is what they have been taught by the Church and that is what they want. I believe this is very sad but I cannot change what people believe, all I can do is share what I believe.

 

[CG Didymus]

"I will not leave you as orphans; I am coming to you. After a little while, the world no longer is going to see Me, but you are going to see Me; because I live, you also will live." (John 14)

This is from the long farewell speech (only in Gospel of John) just before Jesus was betrayed and put to death. This is why he says" the world will no longer see me."

It's not like I believe any of this literally, but I disagree with why the Baha'is don't take it literally.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.​

Baha'is can say the gospel writers were not eyewitnesses. And they can say that about Paul also. But I don't think they are correct in saying that the NT doesn't support a belief that Jesus resurrected and is coming back. But what is the NT, if not the writings of the followers and believers in Jesus. If it doesn't say what the Baha'is believe to be correct, then they should stop acting as if they believe in it as being "God's Word." They should say what they really believe it to be, wrong historically, wrong about God and wrong about Jesus.

 

[CG Didymus]

Scholars need to have some capacity to critically evaluate Biblical texts. Uncritically accepting the texts as literal history and 'The Word of God' is not scholarship

Who other than some Christians are going to believe that Jesus rising from the dead and ascending into the clouds were real, historical events? But is there evidence to support the Baha'i view that resurrection and ascending into the clouds was written by the gospel writers to be taken as symbolic?

 

[CG Didymus]

Studies show otherwise.

Yes, accurate remembering what Jesus really said and did, or being really good at making up oral traditions and legends of things that didn't happen to make Jesus a miracle man?

 

[CG Didymus]

The Bahai view from the Bahai scriptures:

1. Bible has never been corrupted.
2. It has been a sufficient guidance for the people of its Time, because God does not leave a people without a proper guidance.
3. It is divinely inspired, and contains many mysteries of God.
4. A great part of Bible is written in figurative language rather than literal, according to the will of God.
5. It could have minor inaccuracies, but those do not make a difference in the message and meanings it intends.

Again, Baha'u'llah said Ishmael, not Isaac, was taken by Abraham to be sacrificed. That's not a "minor" difference or inaccuracy. And if some Scribes conspired together to change the story to Isaac, wouldn't that be corrupting the text?

But what Christians and Jews believe to be true about the Bible and the NT doesn't matter, because Baha'is use the "figurative" language excuse to change the interpretations of any Bible or NT story they want to.

 

[Trailblazer]

But I don't think they are correct in saying that the NT doesn't support a belief that Jesus resurrected and is coming back.

The NT might support a belief that Jesus resurrected, but IN NO WAY does the NT support a belief that the same Jesus in His resurrected body is coming back to earth. The NT refutes that left an d right. Christians have to twist the meanings of many verses to support that false belief.

Wanting Jesus to come back to earth is not going to bring Jesus back to earth. When will Christians stop waiting? When hell freezes over. Meanwhile Christ already returned and they rejected Him.... and you know the rest of it

 

[Trailblazer]

But what Christians and Jews believe to be true about the Bible and the NT doesn't matter,

No, it doesn't matter if you compare it to what Baha'is believe, since the Bible is not the Word of God in any real sense; it is the writings of men who allegedly spoke for Jesus and the prophets of the OT. For obvious logical reasons, that in no way compares to the actual Word of God that was revealed directly to the Bab and Baha'u'llah and written down by Them in their own Pens. That is scripture, the Bible is oral tradition.

 

[Trailblazer]

Who other than some Christians are going to believe that Jesus rising from the dead and ascending into the clouds were real, historical events? But is there evidence to support the Baha'i view that resurrection and ascending into the clouds was written by the gospel writers to be taken as symbolic?

Why would it matter what the gospel writers wanted it to mean? That does not mean that the body of Jesus resurrected and ascended into the clouds. The gospel writers had an agenda, to convince people.

I just learned that from @PearlSeeker yesterday.

Study of gospel literature genre shows that gospels ("good news") were written similarly to biography. The reported events were supposed to convince that Jesus is the Messiah.
#293 PearlSeeker, Yesterday at 4:32 AM

But that doesn't mean what they were trying to convince people of was actually true.

 

[Fool]

Within spiritual practice they rely on oral tradition

Oral tradition with a teacher is used vs written because corrections are immediate. Interpretation is not left to the disciple. Otherwise you get the mess we're in now with 50000 denominations of Christianity.

 

[PearlSeeker]

"I glorified You on the earth by accomplishing the work which You have given Me to do." (John 17:4)

What was Jesus supposed to finish? He fulfilled the prophecies and God's plan for salvation. This includes giving his life:

When Jesus had received the sour wine, he said, “It is finished,” and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit. (John 19:30)​

 

[firedragon]

Most modern scholars agree we can not know for certain who wrote any of the Gospels. The authors were probably second or third generation Christians recalling the stories they heard rather than first hand eye witnesses to the events they wrote.

There is uncertainty about when each Gospel account was written. The purpose appears to have been to encourage the faithful and meet the needs of some early Christian communities if John 20:31 is anything to go by:

But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

It is a stretch to argue the Gospels were historically reliable records and that was probably never the intention.

I have no problem with the evangelical Christian perspective as long as its acknowledged the supporting evidence is weak at best.

In regards Baha'i vs Christian, this is problematic. Within the Baha'i community there is a spectrum of beliefs concerning the Christian Bible from those similar to the evangelical Christians to the more liberally inclined. There are diverse views among Baha'is as there are among Christians.

Interesting. Do you think Bahaullah knew the new perspectives of the scholars about the New Testament? Or rather specifically the canonical gospels? Did he also think that the books are anonymous and historically unreliable?