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Why the World Would Not Be Better Off Without Religion

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
The notion that the world would be better off without any religion is neither new nor uncommon, especially among certain non-religious communities such as "New Atheists." However, for the reasons I will list in this thread, I believe it is inaccurate and largely incorrect in that it seems to view and treat religious belief as somehow inherently different from other cultural, ideological, and political views that can influence one's actions.

- During multiple periods in history, religious belief that the universe is the creation of a deity has been behind a considerable amount of scientific and philosophical thought. This extends from medieval periods of Christian dominance over Europe to the Islamic Golden Age, when the natural sciences were viewed by some thinkers and scientists as a way to understand God's creation.

- Religious thought around the world has given humanity some immensely useful concepts or at least helped to popularize and widen their use. These include meditation, mindfulness, literary and textual analysis (especially to understand scripture), and poetic and linguistic devices that have made their way into various literary and artistic media.

Qur'anic Arabic greatly influences a lot of Arabic poetry, for instance, and Dante's Inferno is another example of an outstanding artistic contribution influenced by religious concepts and thought.

- The sense of community that religions offer has an undeniably positive outcome for the lives of many people. Humans are social creatures, and it is no surprise that a venue for bonding and connecting over deeply held beliefs is valuable for many of them.

- Due to some religions' emphasis on the value of charity and giving to the poor, many in need have benefited from aid given by religious institutions, especially when state apparatuses meant to oversee social security have failed or functioned improperly. The Catholic Church, for all of its faults, has helped a lot of poor people throughout its history, as have many mosques and Islamic community centers, among others.

This is a very brief list, but the main point is that, in my opinion, the world wouldn't be any better or worse off without religion than it would be without, say, politics or other cultural elements. We can see that political ideology underpins hatred, persecution, and tribalism in countries like China and North Korea regardless of religious affiliation. As with any human institution, politics, religion, and culture all have their pros and cons, and I don't believe religion is so unique in this regard as to render its absence from the world a necessarily good thing on the whole.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
The notion that the world would be better off without any religion is neither new nor uncommon, especially among certain non-religious communities such as "New Atheists." However, for the reasons I will list in this thread, I believe it is inaccurate and largely incorrect in that it seems to view and treat religious belief as somehow inherently different from other cultural, ideological, and political views that can influence one's actions.

- During multiple periods in history, religious belief that the universe is the creation of a deity has been behind a considerable amount of scientific and philosophical thought. This extends from medieval periods of Christian dominance over Europe to the Islamic Golden Age, when the natural sciences were viewed by some thinkers and scientists as a way to understand God's creation.

- Religious thought around the world has given humanity some immensely useful concepts or at least helped to popularize and widen their use. These include meditation, mindfulness, literary and textual analysis (especially to understand scripture), and poetic and linguistic devices that have made their way into various literary and artistic media.

Qur'anic Arabic greatly influences a lot of Arabic poetry, for instance, and Dante's Inferno is another example of an outstanding artistic contribution influenced by religious concepts and thought.

- The sense of community that religions offer has an undeniably positive outcome for the lives of many people. Humans are social creatures, and it is no surprise that a venue for bonding and connecting over deeply held beliefs is valuable for many of them.

- Due to some religions' emphasis on the value of charity and giving to the poor, many in need have benefited from aid given by religious institutions, especially when state apparatuses meant to oversee social security have failed or functioned improperly. The Catholic Church, for all of its faults, has helped a lot of poor people throughout its history, as have many mosques and Islamic community centers, among others.

This is a very brief list, but the main point is that, in my opinion, the world wouldn't be any better or worse off without religion than it would be without, say, politics or other cultural elements. We can see that political ideology underpins hatred, persecution, and tribalism in countries like China and North Korea regardless of religious affiliation. As with any human institution, politics, religion, and culture all have their pros and cons, and I don't believe religion is so unique in this regard as to render its absence from the world a necessarily good thing on the whole.

I will go even deeper. The idea of only objective evidence and objective modern rationalism is dead on arrival and has been since the Enlightenment, because nobody so far has solved metaphysics or morality using those 2 above.
The "New Atheists" just don't want to admit that, because in the end objectivity is better than subjectivity. The problem is that the "better" is subjective.
And they don't really understand that just because biological evolution resulted in us having higher cognition as in effect evolutionary niche, that this doesn't mean that we will be able to in strong coherent terms describe all of the everyday world in objective terms.
That is not science, that is philosophy and the idea of truth as coherence. But it doesn't work, because even logic has a limit in practice.
Just as science has these limits including the last one:
https://undsci.berkeley.edu/article/0_0_0/whatisscience_12
 

Truth in love

Well-Known Member
The contributions of religion and religious people are massive. (Granted not all are positive).

Much of our modern world had its refinement in a lab, but stared in the church( temper mosque etc.).

A few examples
Browning (Guns)
Farnsworth (TV)
The first book of the western printing press was the Bible
Civil rights
Ending slavery
Save myself some typing
One moment, please...

Harvard and Yale started off as religious schools.
So even for the diehard extra atheist their life is a lot better because of religious belief and the actions of those who believe.
 

Orbit

I'm a planet
Yet, Christian nationalism is a threat in the US. Those gun-toting, wanna shove their religion-down-your-throat people who want to make their religion the law of the land I can do without.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
Yet, Christian nationalism is a threat in the US. Those gun-toting, wanna shove their religion-down-your-throat people who want to make their religion the law of the land I can do without.

As with any cultural movement or ideology, the Christian religion also has undesirable and harmful branches. Christian nationalism in the U.S. is one such element, in my view, but it's far from being representative of Christianity worldwide.

Islam also has some extremist schools of thought (e.g., the fundamentalist, theocratic ones that influence state law in Saudi Arabia and Iran) and more liberal interpretations (those in, say, Bosnia and Turkey).
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
The notion that the world would be better off without any religion is neither new nor uncommon, especially among certain non-religious communities such as "New Atheists." However, for the reasons I will list in this thread, I believe it is inaccurate and largely incorrect in that it seems to view and treat religious belief as somehow inherently different from other cultural, ideological, and political views that can influence one's actions.

- During multiple periods in history, religious belief that the universe is the creation of a deity has been behind a considerable amount of scientific and philosophical thought. This extends from medieval periods of Christian dominance over Europe to the Islamic Golden Age, when the natural sciences were viewed by some thinkers and scientists as a way to understand God's creation.

- Religious thought around the world has given humanity some immensely useful concepts or at least helped to popularize and widen their use. These include meditation, mindfulness, literary and textual analysis (especially to understand scripture), and poetic and linguistic devices that have made their way into various literary and artistic media.

Qur'anic Arabic greatly influences a lot of Arabic poetry, for instance, and Dante's Inferno is another example of an outstanding artistic contribution influenced by religious concepts and thought.

- The sense of community that religions offer has an undeniably positive outcome for the lives of many people. Humans are social creatures, and it is no surprise that a venue for bonding and connecting over deeply held beliefs is valuable for many of them.

- Due to some religions' emphasis on the value of charity and giving to the poor, many in need have benefited from aid given by religious institutions, especially when state apparatuses meant to oversee social security have failed or functioned improperly. The Catholic Church, for all of its faults, has helped a lot of poor people throughout its history, as have many mosques and Islamic community centers, among others.

This is a very brief list, but the main point is that, in my opinion, the world wouldn't be any better or worse off without religion than it would be without, say, politics or other cultural elements. We can see that political ideology underpins hatred, persecution, and tribalism in countries like China and North Korea regardless of religious affiliation. As with any human institution, politics, religion, and culture all have their pros and cons, and I don't believe religion is so unique in this regard as to render its absence from the world a necessarily good thing on the whole.
I remain neutral on the subject, despite being raised and continue to be religious myself.

Religion has no doubt contributed much to science, the arts, philosophy and all around had a positive influence on many people. It has also inspired wars, ignorance and death cults.

It’s like any philosophy really. It’s a tool. One that can be used to bludgeon your fellow man. Conversely it can be used to celebrate the humanity of your brethren.

Would the world be better off without it? I don’t think it would make much difference in the long run, imo

The bad would still happen as folks would simply find some other tool to shield their ignorance. And they’d find some other philosophy to help them with their academic and artistic endeavours.
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
Yet, Christian nationalism is a threat in the US. Those gun-toting, wanna shove their religion-down-your-throat people who want to make their religion the law of the land I can do without.
A lot of the nationalist are atheist or non religious, you can't ignore this fact
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
from wikepedia on alt right and white nationalism

Religion
The alt-right is broadly secular.[308] Many of its members are atheists,[309] or highly skeptical of organized religion.[310] Some alt-rightists identify as Christians;[311] The Right Stuff, for instance, hosted an alt-right Christian podcast called "The Godcast".[312] There are also individuals in the movement who do not believe in Christian teachings but identify as cultural Christians, admiring the Christian heritage of Western society.[309] Others on the alt-right oppose Christianity entirely, criticizing it for its Jewish roots, for being a universal religion that seeks to cross racial boundaries, and for encouraging what they see as a "slave morality" that they contrast with perceived ancient aristocratic values.[313] Some elements pursue modern Paganism.[309][314] White evangelical leaders of the Southern Baptist Church have angered the alt-right by expressing support for refugees entering the U.S., calling for measures to help undocumented migrants gain legal status, and urging members not to display the Confederate Battle Flag.[315] Despite this, alt-right hostility to Christianity has waned over time, with many alt-right commentators identifying as Christian, while rejecting mainstream Christian politics and most mainstream Christian religious leaders, especially Pope Francis.[316] The Mormon-related hashtag #DezNat – which targets pornography, the LGBTQ community, Mormon apostates and progressives, sometimes violently (see blood atonement) – has also been linked to the alt-right.[317]

Several press sources have linked the alt-right to Islamophobia,[318][319] and Wendling stated that alt-rightists view Islam as a fundamental threat to Western society.[309] Hawley expressed the view that "ironically, people on the Alt-Right are less Islamophobic than many mainstream conservatives".[320] He observed that many U.S. conservatives criticized Muslim migration to the United States, because they regarded Islam as a threat to liberty; the alt-right has made little use of this argument. For alt-rightists, migration from Islamic-majority countries is undesirable not because the migrants are Muslims, but because most of them are non-white; it is equally opposed to non-white migrants who are Christian or non-religious.[321]

Structure
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
A lot of the nationalist are atheist or non religious, you can't ignore this fact
Some might be. Statistically speaking it’s a good probability
A lot are some flavour of Christian or espouse “sympathy” for Christian values

Like a lot. Though interestingly the different factions of fascists are surprisingly diverse in their beliefs. Which is somewhat ironic.

(Not connecting one to another. Just an observation. Indeed there are entire books dedicated to rebuking these movements by other Christians.)

I agree that there are a lot of non religious fascists. But there is a disconcerting pattern of Christian Fascism as well
 

Truth in love

Well-Known Member
Yet, Christian nationalism is a threat in the US. Those gun-toting, wanna shove their religion-down-your-throat people who want to make their religion the law of the land I can do without.
How about those that just want the law of the land to be applied without being reinvented?
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
In the first instance, having been an atheist for over two decades and waded my way through plenty of "new atheist" material in that time, the conclusion I've reached is that it's all total junk. If we erased the sum total of new atheist work we'd be no worse off than before.

So, depending on what we mean by "the world" we could argue that it would be better off without humans and that this is almost the same statement as "better off without religion".

If humans are a given, I tend to think that religion has many costs and benefits that aren't easy to stack up against each other. And on the grand scale religion is too varied to talk about generally. We'd be better off without dogmatic lunatics willing to kill others but not charitable grannies willing to risk their lives for others. The way a person relates to their own understanding of the world is complicated and not reducible to "is or is not religious", imo.
 

Sand Dancer

Crazy Cat Lady
Yet, Christian nationalism is a threat in the US. Those gun-toting, wanna shove their religion-down-your-throat people who want to make their religion the law of the land I can do without.

Sadly, they may use parts of Christianity, but they must have missed the love parts of the Bible, and Jesus' example.
 

Truth in love

Well-Known Member
Define reinvented.
Because I sincerely doubt you follow every law that was commissioned in say 1639. I certainly don’t
Just curious
The Constitution is great. (It failed to extend rights to all persons when established and that needed to be fixed.)

We don’t need to make everything a major legal battle and lot more live and let live would work out well.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
The Constitution is great. (It failed to extend rights to all persons when established and that needed to be fixed.)

We don’t need to make everything a major legal battle and lot more live and let live would work out well.
Fair enough.
So I take it you support giving all freedoms to all, including those who vehemently disagree with you?
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
Fair enough.
So I take it you support giving all freedoms to all, including those who vehemently disagree with you?
I think he was mostly speaking of giving rights to fascists and white nationalists
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
I think he was mostly speaking of giving rights to fascists and white nationalists
Well they have rights. I personally am neither. But they have the right to live, to vote and whatever else the US guarantees. Not particularly familiar, sorry
Barring police citations, I supose
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
The way I see it, before asking what a world without religion would be we have to decide what would exist as an alternative and, most of all, what should count as "absence of religion".

Some aspects of religiosity are perhaps unavoidable and unharmful.

Abrahamic insistence in belief as a virtue and in dogma as something to be respected is something else entirely. It _is_ both harmful and avoidable. In many ways humanity should be ashamed of not having disposed of it already.

As for giving the Abrahamics credit, I think that they give credit do themselves plenty enough already. It is a bit ludicrous in many situations. They seem to have convinced themselves that humanity would not have developed language, science and economics were it not for the awareness of Abrahamic scriptures. That is really pushing it way beyond anything worth taking into account.

The presence of Abrahamic doctrines that want to be acknowledge as having religious value has also hindered who knows how many other, less destructive, saner alternatives - as we can easily see where they were not very well known.
 
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