What do Atheists Want?

[mikkel_the_dane]

I think that is what fascinates Theists about Atheists. We 'Try'. Try to live. Theist ask Why Try? For What? Why do we exist if but soon to not exist? Humans, unlike animals, are burdened with Why? Are we wrong for that differentiation?

Well, since I am a skeptic I don't mind the answer - I don't know, but here is how I cope.

 

[viole]

No, not all philosophical views are religious, but all world views likely are. At least for some academic definitions of religion.

So, how is philosophical naturalism not a philosophical position? Or better, how is it different from another ontological position so that it deserves to be a religion?

ciao

- viole

 

[Jacob Samuelson]

But God is not just omnipotent and omniscient, [he]'s also perfect. Therefore when [he] created the universe, [he] already knew, and already intended, everything down to the most perfect detail that would ever happen, including the typo I just corrected. Nothing, no one, can deviate even to the tiniest degree, from what [he] perfectly foresaw and intended and (being perfect and therefore never needing to change [his] mind) still intends and always will intend.

Where is your proof of this statement? The scriptures you shared do not sufficiently give us answer to determine that God has decided everything for us. If he is perfect, than he must also perfectly love his creations for that is how we too feel and exist. Can you love a robot you created and programmed to hate you? God didn't create robots. He created Humans that are programmed to think for themselves and determine their own outcome and hopefully decide to live as God lives. Free Agency is essential for God's Love to exist and therefore he choose not to prove his Omnipotence or Omniscience. I cannot think of anyway around that except to be in your state of unbelief which I believe doesn't sufficiently answer much.

 

[Jacob Samuelson]

Especially so if most or all of the religious narratives are fantasy - given that they cannot all be correct. Don't know your background, but if you were born elsewhere (Iran or India, for example) do you think you would have the same religious beliefs you have now? And given your age, you might have had such throughout your childhood perhaps, through education and such.

This is a good question to ask. I can only speculate an answer, but according to my current beliefs my character is what is judged and not my religion. Hypothetically, I would be the same person by nature, than I would be curious about a deity as opposed to the absence of one. My curiosity would eventually either have me killed by my society or bring me to a very similar understanding as I have today. Perhaps not the same religion but the same Theistic tendencies which in my current beliefs would be permissible as obtaining some type of post-mortal glory of heaven.

 

[Altfish]

Well, I can find it. But you will simply retreat into that atheism is only a negative and never a part of an overall worldview.

Well it is true, atheism is just a negative. All it says is I don't believe in god(s), it says nothing else. You may be a racist atheist, a conservative atheist a socialist atheist, etc. you get the picture, atheism comes with no baggage
That's why I call myself a Humanist.

 

[Altfish]

How is value determined? We buy a $1 item say a pencil because we believe that a pencil's materials and supply and demand equal $1 to us. Yet say that pencil was used to draw world renowned cartoons like Peanuts. Is that pencil still worth $1 if the artist decides to sell it. What gives that pencil value? What gives us value?

It is not a monetary value

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

So, how is philosophical naturalism not a philosophical position? Or better, how is it different from another ontological position so that it deserves to be a religion?

ciao

- viole

Well, all world views that claim to tell us what the world is and our part in it is religious, since no of that is with evidence. All of those variants are based on beliefs with any truth, proof, evidence and what not.
So all positive ontological claims are to me religious.

 

[viole]

Well, all world views that claim to tell us what the world is and our part in it is religious, since no of that is with evidence. All of those variants are based on beliefs with any truth, proof, evidence and what not.
So all positive ontological claims are to me religious.

Therefore ontology = religion. To you, of course.

right?

ciao

- viole

 

[Altfish]

I’m happy to allow atheists to define atheism for themselves. But as with all philosophical and theological positions, there will inevitably be a broad range of definitions.

I do get the point that one cannot reasonably define one’s world view purely by a negative.

Would you care to give your definition of atheism. I'm interested to know.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Well it is true, atheism is just a negative. All it says is I don't believe in god(s), it says nothing else. You may be a racist atheist, a conservative atheist a socialist atheist, etc. you get the picture, atheism comes with no baggage
That's why I call myself a Humanist.

But even that is not enough, besides how come it is a Humanist and not a humanist. What do you consider the world to be? How do you actually do morality/ethics? How do you view science and knowledge? There are problem more positive positions?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Therefore ontology = religion. To you, of course.

right?

ciao

- viole

Well, yes. If you combine this understanding of religion
religion | Definition, Types, List of Religions, Symbols, Examples, & Facts
with other academic understandings of religion, then all adults with high enough cognition are religious as to what matters, what makes a human a human in a subjective value sense and what the world is.

 

[Nimos]

Your perspective is assuming that Theist believe Bigfoot created the universe, which is how you are comparing the two. I don't want anything from Bigfoot because Bigfoot has no pretensive application to my life whether he existed or not. God on the other hand has much more application on his existence to Theist and to Atheist. Discovering a new species of animal is great news but does it really give me purpose to everyone's life. No. So I don't believe your statement holds true that Atheist would want nothing out of God in the same manner we would Bigfoot. Would you value afterlife if it existed? Maybe that is a better question for you.

No, the comparison is simply that if you do not believe something exist, you don't want or expect anything from such thing.

What application does God existence have for atheists?

Whether I would value an afterlife, depends on what that afterlife would be like. If its nothing but pain and suffering then the answer would be no. If it were one with a high quality of live and what I consider good things, then yes.

But a promise of a good afterlife as we see in some religions, have little meaning for me unless demonstrated to be true. I find no pleasure or benefits in believing it to be true, if it is not. Likewise, I find no fear or worry in thinking I will be punished for not following certain rules.

I believe or wish for us humans to live and create good things with what we know exist, that ought to be our aim. Worrying about something which might or might not be true and shape our lives around it as if it were, I see no benefits or even purpose of doing.

 

[Jacob Samuelson]

With so many propositions as to which God behaves in what manner, it hardly matters to an atheist I would imagine, given they suspect all such is just projection from the various different faiths. How could they (the atheists) - and being so presumptuous of them - make any sort of judgement as to in what manner any Gods might behave?

The idea I was mentioning is that to have a definite answer to which of the God(s) are the correct one is what Atheist would love to obtain. I don't believe Atheist choose to not believe in God simply because he doesn't exist. This would be the same as a Theist choosing to Believe in God because he does exist, which has no grounds for any evidential information as to why humans do what they do. So to have a conclusion to whether God exist or not must contain evidence of his existence and therefore having a physical conversation with Him would, I imagine, be very wanted by an Atheists and perhaps many theists as well. Humans just want to know what on Earth are we doing here. Theist are not satisfied with the simplicity of an Atheists answer. Atheist are not satisfied with the complexity of a Theist's answer. It just so happens that humans are complex beings and having a conclusive reasoning to their actions on a evolutionary scale in my opinion is less possible than to conclude their behaviors on a creationary scale. Yet I also believe that the two philosophies should both reach the same conclusion eventually in the end.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

No comparison is simply that if you do not believe something exist, you don't want or expect anything from such thing.

What application does God existence have on atheists?

Whether I would value an afterlife, depends on what that afterlife would be like. If its nothing but pain and suffering then the answer would be no. If it were one with a high quality of live and what I consider good things, then yes.

But a promise of a good afterlife as we see in some religions, have little meaning for me unless demonstrated to be true. I find no pleasure or benefits in believing it to be true, if it is not. Likewise, I find no fear or worry in thinking I will be punished for not following certain rules.

I believe or wish for us humans to live and create good things with what we know exist, that ought to be our aim. Worrying about something which might or might not be true and shape our lives around it as if it were, I see no benefits or even purpose of doing.

Well, all fair and well. But if you are one of those who know what the world/the universe/reality/everything is in a positive metaphysical/ontological sense in effect and as true, you face the same problem as with an afterlife or God.

 

[Jacob Samuelson]

What application does God existence have for atheists?

Atheist are created by God. Atheists exist and live on a green planet. Atheists will be given judgment by God after life. That is the application for your's and everyone's existence.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

The idea I was mentioning is that to have a definite answer to which of the God(s) are the correct one is what Atheist would love to obtain. I don't believe Atheist choose to not believe in God simply because he doesn't exist. This would be the same as a Theist choosing to Believe in God because he does exist, which has no grounds for any evidential information as to why humans do what they do. So to have a conclusion to whether God exist or not must contain evidence of his existence and therefore having a physical conversation with Him would, I imagine, be very wanted by an Atheists and perhaps many theists as well. Humans just want to know what on Earth are we doing here. Theist are not satisfied with the simplicity of an Atheists answer. Atheist are not satisfied with the complexity of a Theist's answer. It just so happens that humans are complex beings and having a conclusive reasoning to their actions on a evolutionary scale in my opinion is less possible than to conclude their behaviors on a creationary scale. Yet I also believe that the two philosophies should both reach the same conclusion eventually in the end.

Well, there are 3 philosophies at play.
It is known that X exists.
It is know that X doesn't exist.
It is unknown whether X exists or not.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Atheist are created by God. Atheists exist and live on a green planet. Atheists will be given judgment by God after life. That is the application for your's and everyone's existence.

I believe differently.

 

[Jacob Samuelson]

Whether I would value an afterlife, depends on what that afterlife would be like. If its nothing but pain and suffering then the answer would be no. If it were one with a high quality of live and what I consider good things, then yes.

Well do you value the quality of life that you have now? This world is nothing but pain and suffering for many people. So for you, the life for many suffering people is of little value and the life of billionaires is of great value. I find this an important contrast to how believing people view the world as opposed to unbelieving people. I think Theists would want to exist after death, being with those whom they exist with on Earth. Family, friends, like-minded individuals, and of course a loving God. Is this what you would value too?

 

[Mock Turtle]

This is a good question to ask. I can only speculate an answer, but according to my current beliefs my character is what is judged and not my religion. Hypothetically, I would be the same person by nature, than I would be curious about a deity as opposed to the absence of one. My curiosity would eventually either have me killed by my society or bring me to a very similar understanding as I have today. Perhaps not the same religion but the same Theistic tendencies which in my current beliefs would be permissible as obtaining some type of post-mortal glory of heaven.

I don't in general have much against religions, apart from some of the more harmful effects they might have on others, but one issue I do have is with regards the early education or indoctrination of children, especially when they perhaps aren't really in a position to fully appreciate what is happening during such. Harsh as it might seem, I would ban religious teaching from schools, unless this was mainly as to the comparison of religious beliefs and being inclusive of no such beliefs.

I consider myself lucky as to not having much of a religious belief taught to me, apart from at school and where I was bored stiff mainly during the RI lessons - at secondary school. I had already made my mind up as to not implicitly believing anything coming from written books from so long ago. Not a lot has changed with this either.

 

[Colt]

I have been thinking lately about the collective responses that I receive from those who reject the God narratives.

I will be the first to concede any debate against my Atheist friends as their grasp to reality is what keeps them grounded and their attention to humanly influence and scientific evidences are crucial to holding less to fantasy and more to the world and the physicality around them. Who can blame a person that would rather devote their life to science books than fantasy? Aren't their interests just as valid?

I can imagine that to the Atheist, whether God exists or not, the mere reasoning behind the way He does things wouldn't be something they could worship or admire. I could see an Atheists conversation with God after death be something like this: "Could you blame me? You had built a world that had so much evil and death inside it, when you could have made it like _________.

I am sure Atheist would love to have a conversation with God. To hear his response to their complaints about what happened and why they happened that way. Heck, I think Theists would eavesdrop in as well to that dialogue.

I believe in a God that does reason with people. We give him the title of Righteous Judge for a reason. He will hear out your side to the sentencing and based on whether He feels you have had sufficient evidence or not will judge you as fairly as possible, better so, than any person could fathom in today's judicial systems.

So is that what Atheists want? Why do they even join this Religious Forum I wonder? Do they want to live forever being right? Or do they want to live forever feeling wronged?

The truth is, whether you believe in God or not, you will die. I'm sorry for the spoiler alert to some of you. When that happens, will Atheists and Theists get what they want? I can only speak as a theist. What do Atheist think?

When Atheist join religious forums they want attention.