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Jesus only Started one Church

KW

Well-Known Member
Which Church fits these descriptions?

John 20
21Again Jesus said to them, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent Me, so also I am sending you.” 22When He had said this, He breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you withhold forgiveness from anyone, it is withheld.”

Matt 16
18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

Matt 18:17

If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

1 Tim 3:15

if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

Luke 10:16
“Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.”
 
Which Church fits these descriptions?

John 20
21Again Jesus said to them, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent Me, so also I am sending you.” 22When He had said this, He breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you withhold forgiveness from anyone, it is withheld.”

Matt 16
18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

Matt 18:17

If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

1 Tim 3:15

if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

Luke 10:16
“Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.”
While I think this in interesting we should remember that the bible was not around when Jesus was around. The canon is a later development and from what we know of the historical Jesus these quotes are almost all describing a Jewish sect.

Which would imply to me that the Catholic church a long with all the later developed churches are probably not what he would be talking about. I would also argue that the worship of Jesus is a later development but that might be something to get into later.
 

KW

Well-Known Member
While I think this in interesting we should remember that the bible was not around when Jesus was around. The canon is a later development and from what we know of the historical Jesus these quotes are almost all describing a Jewish sect.

Which would imply to me that the Catholic church a long with all the later developed churches are probably not what he would be talking about. I would also argue that the worship of Jesus is a later development but that might be something to get into later.


Christianity is a Jewish sect. Jesus is the prophesied messiah. Worshiping Jesus is central to Christianity and always has been. From Thomas's , "My Lord and My God" this has always been the case.

Of course it is the Catholic Church. There was no other Church at the time. The Catholic Church is led by the successors of the apostles. Their lineage is documented.

What other Church could it be?
 

KW

Well-Known Member
The Assyrian Church of the East.


That is the Catholic Church.

Chaldean Catholics (Syriac: ܟܲܠܕܵܝܵܐ ܩܲܬܘܿܠܝܼܩܵܝܵܐ), also known as Chaldeans (Syriac: ܟܠܕܝ̈ܐ or ܟܲܠܕܵܝܹܐ, Kaldāye), Chaldo-Assyrians or Assyro-Chaldeans, are Assyrian adherents of the Chaldean Catholic Church, which originates from the historic Church of the East.

Of all the Eastern Rites within the Catholic Church, the Chaldean Rite is perhaps the oldest, both chronologically and in the form of its liturgy.
 

mangalavara

हर हर महादेव
Premium Member
That is the Catholic Church.

Of all the Eastern Rites within the Catholic Church, the Chaldean Rite is perhaps the oldest, both chronologically and in the form of its liturgy.

The Chaldean Catholic Church is not the same entity as the Assyrian Church of the East or even the Ancient Church of the East. The latter two entities accept only two ecumenical synods.
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
Which Church fits these descriptions?

John 20
21Again Jesus said to them, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent Me, so also I am sending you.” 22When He had said this, He breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you withhold forgiveness from anyone, it is withheld.”

Matt 16
18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

Matt 18:17

If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

1 Tim 3:15

if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

Luke 10:16
“Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.”
Jesus started the Kingdom of heaven, his followers started the institutional church which basically reestablished the Sanhedrin and all the trouble that went with it. The evil of the church is not it's existence rather its that the church replaced the Kingdom of Heaven ideal.
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
Which Church fits these descriptions?

John 20
21Again Jesus said to them, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent Me, so also I am sending you.” 22When He had said this, He breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you withhold forgiveness from anyone, it is withheld.”

Matt 16
18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

Matt 18:17

If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

1 Tim 3:15

if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

Luke 10:16
“Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.”
I believe the Church is within the heart of each Christian who practice the teaching given by Jesus...
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
The early Christians split into factions almost immediately. There were the Arians, the Nestorians, the Miaphysites, the Dyophysites and the Chalcedonians, and many more.

A whole series of Councils (Nicaea, Constantinople, Ephesus, Chalcedon and repeats of some of them later) from 300-700 or so was called to settle various doctrinal disputes, not generally to the satisfaction of everyone. It seems dubious to assert that Christ founded one church, when the doctrinal issues that divided Christians later were not even articulated in his time.

Here is a diagram showing the splits:

9e3af222927a2a342d6849f483aebee6--church-of-jesus-christ-lds-church.jpg
 

KW

Well-Known Member
The Chaldean Catholic Church is not the same entity as the Assyrian Church of the East or even the Ancient Church of the East. The latter two entities accept only two ecumenical synods.
The Chaldean Catholic Church is not the same entity as the Assyrian Church of the East or even the Ancient Church of the East. The latter two entities accept only two ecumenical synods.

Some eastern Christians stayed with Rome, some didn't. They have the same origins.

The Orthodox churches have continued to become more splintered and ethnic while the Catholic rites are part of the worldwide body of Christ.
 

KW

Well-Known Member
The early Christians split into factions almost immediately. There were the Arians, the Nestorians, the Miaphysites, the Dyophysites and the Chalcedonians, and many more.

A whole series of Councils (Nicaea, Constantinople, Ephesus, Chalcedon and repeats of some of them later) from 300-700 or so was called to settle various doctrinal disputes, not generally to the satisfaction of everyone. It seems dubious to assert that Christ founded one church, when the doctrinal issues that divided Christians later were not even articulated in his time.

Here is a diagram showing the splits:

9e3af222927a2a342d6849f483aebee6--church-of-jesus-christ-lds-church.jpg


That is pure fantasy.

There were Catholic Christians and there were heresies.

Those heresies can still be found in some small pockets, but protestant Christians reject these heresies just as Catholics do. Those who hold these heresies were never part of the Church Jesus started.

That's the reason Jesus started a Church with authority and told the rest of us to listen to it.
 

KW

Well-Known Member
I believe the Church is within the heart of each Christian who practice the teaching given by Jesus...


There are thousands of socalled churches teaching contradictory doctrines. Do you think Jesus teaches lies to some of is followers, or do you think they are mistaken?
 

KW

Well-Known Member
Jesus started the Kingdom of heaven, his followers started the institutional church which basically reestablished the Sanhedrin and all the trouble that went with it. The evil of the church is not it's existence rather its that the church replaced the Kingdom of Heaven ideal.


Why did Jesus appoint Church leaders and tell the rest of us to listen to them?

How do we listen to the Church in your world?
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
There are thousands of socalled churches teaching contradictory doctrines. Do you think Jesus teaches lies to some of is followers, or do you think they are mistaken?
The different branches come long after Jesu passing. It is a human thing to make different branches from the original teaching. Personally i believe Jesu teaching was not as complicated as many people make it to be
 

KW

Well-Known Member
The different branches come long after Jesu passing. It is a human thing to make different branches from the original teaching. Personally i believe Jesu teaching was not as complicated as many people make it to be

How do you know anything about Jesus if not by the Church?

You don't just get to make up what he taught, right?

Do you agree that Jesus started a Church and promised to be with it until the end of time?
 
Christianity is a Jewish sect. Jesus is the prophesied messiah. Worshiping Jesus is central to Christianity and always has been. From Thomas's , "My Lord and My God" this has always been the case.

Of course it is the Catholic Church. There was no other Church at the time. The Catholic Church is led by the successors of the apostles. Their lineage is documented.

What other Church could it be?
I mean, the Catholic church did not exist during Jesus's time.

Worship of Jesus is also something we don't really even see in the gospels. Add this to the fact that once again all of the gospels are a later development and we kind of have a problem with the idea that the catholic church is the group Jesus founded.

John is probably the first gospel we have in the new testament that even has a high christology. I think it's important to note as well that the gospels don't even agree on what actually happened during Jesus's lifetime and you know that might be kind of a big deal?

I would invite you to read the gospels side by side. What happens during the crucifixion?

In the gospel of Luke we have Jesus pretty much in control the whole time.
Luke chapter 23 verses 26 - 43
26 As the soldiers led him away, they seized Simon from Cyrene, who was on his way in from the country, and put the cross on him and made him carry it behind Jesus. 27 A large number of people followed him, including women who mourned and wailed for him. 28 Jesus turned and said to them, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me; weep for yourselves and for your children. 29 For the time will come when you will say, ‘Blessed are the childless women, the wombs that never bore and the breasts that never nursed!’ 30 Then

“‘they will say to the mountains, “Fall on us!”
and to the hills, “Cover us!”’a]">[a]

31 For if people do these things when the tree is green, what will happen when it is dry?”

32 Two other men, both criminals, were also led out with him to be executed. 33 When they came to the place called the Skull, they crucified him there, along with the criminals—one on his right, the other on his left. 34 Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”b]">[b] And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.

35 The people stood watching, and the rulers even sneered at him. They said, “He saved others; let him save himself if he is God’s Messiah, the Chosen One.”

36 The soldiers also came up and mocked him. They offered him wine vinegar 37 and said, “If you are the king of the Jews, save yourself.”

38 There was a written notice above him, which read: this is the king of the jews.

39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!”

40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”

42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.c]">[c]”

43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

In the gospel of Mark we are more or less given a sad story of a man being mocked and executed. There is no confidence, there is no speech, there is no redemption. There is a man in shock dying.

Mark Chapter 15 verse 27 - 37
27 They crucified two rebels with him, one on his right and one on his left. [28] a]">[a] 29 Those who passed by hurled insults at him, shaking their heads and saying, “So! You who are going to destroy the temple and build it in three days, 30 come down from the cross and save yourself!” 31 In the same way the chief priests and the teachers of the law mocked him among themselves. “He saved others,” they said, “but he can’t save himself! 32 Let this Messiah, this king of Israel, come down now from the cross, that we may see and believe.” Those crucified with him also heaped insults on him.
33 At noon, darkness came over the whole land until three in the afternoon. 34 And at three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).b]">[b]

35 When some of those standing near heard this, they said, “Listen, he’s calling Elijah.”

36 Someone ran, filled a sponge with wine vinegar, put it on a staff, and offered it to Jesus to drink. “Now leave him alone. Let’s see if Elijah comes to take him down,” he said.

37 With a loud cry, Jesus breathed his last.

In Matthew we have
Matthew chapter 27 verses 45 - 50
45 From noon until three in the afternoon darkness came over all the land. 46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli,a]">[a] lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).b]">[b]

47 When some of those standing there heard this, they said, “He’s calling Elijah.”

48 Immediately one of them ran and got a sponge. He filled it with wine vinegar, put it on a staff, and offered it to Jesus to drink. 49 The rest said, “Now leave him alone. Let’s see if Elijah comes to save him.”

50 And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.

None of this gets into how in John we then have yet another version of events. If you read through these it becomes obvious that we can't even agree on what actually happened during the crucifixion. The bible doesn't know what happened to what a Christian would consider it's most important character.


There is no where in the Torah or Tanakh where it says the messiah will die crucified or as a sacrifice to God for the sins of mankind.
Jeremiah chapter 23 verse 8
8 but, ‘As the Lord lives who brought up and led the descendants of the house of Israel from the north country and from all the countries where I had driven them.’ And they shall dwell in their own land.”
Jeremiah chapter 30 verse 3
3 For behold, the days are coming,’ says the Lord, ‘that I will bring back from captivity My people Israel and Judah,’ says the Lord. ‘And I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.’ ”

Pretty sure Jesus never brought the people back to the holy land.

Mashiach: The Messiah - Judaism 101 (JewFAQ)

I mean there are plenty of reasons to doubt that Jesus is the messiah. We have pretty much no reason to say Jesus is the messiah. I mean a moral teacher sure, but it seems like he has been dragged away from his message and had words stuffed into his mouth. It seems to me that people have made him a puppet for their own desires.

It reminds me of this part in Jesus Christ Superstar honestly.
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
Why did Jesus appoint Church leaders and tell the rest of us to listen to them?

How do we listen to the Church in your world?
The "rock" was supposed to be the witness of God in the heart of the believer as to the identity and truth of the Son. The RCC subsequently exploited the context of the exchange to imply that we were supposed to build the church on top of Peter.

“Blessed are you ,Simon Bar-Jonah!----> For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” Then he strictly charged the disciples to tell no one that he was the Christ.

The rock: For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.

In the King in the kingdom God is the Father (along with the presence of the Son) which is the rock that is to guide us. Having a church that keeps alive this truth is fine but the arrogance of a "chosen people" church is divisive.
 
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