Why did the wages of sin need a Judas in order to fulfill the promise given to Eve?

[AdamjEdgar]

What would have happened if Judas did not betray Jesus? Why did there need to be a single man who did the betraying...indeed what is even the point of such as betrayal...surely it was no secrete where Jesus went during the night for prayer.

To me it almost seems a rather silly method of betrayal...ie to betray the location of a person who made no secret of his whereabouts most of the time. Lets face it, he had only just entered Jerusalem on a donkey with people shouting and singing and laying down vegetation on his pathway, i would imagine that practically the whole of the city must have heard about his triumphal entry into the city. When the naysayer complained about the noise, the Messiah himself stated that if the people were silenced, the very stones would cry out.

So in light of the above, I look at the old testament sanctuary service, to me it represents almost the entire biblical story in terms of the plan of salvation. So if the sanctuary service is representative of this plan, what part of that service accounts for Judas betrayal? Where does Judas fit into all of this exactly...what is the purpose of a betrayal of something that is no secret?

 

[kaninchen]

The Judas business is just another instance of the NT's doing its linking to major figures things - Judah was behind off the selling off of Joseph to the Midianites for 20 shekels, Judas was behind the selling off of Jesus for 30 ‘pieces’ (inflation, probably).

If Reuben had been behind the Joseph event, there’d have been a Reuben Iscariot instead.

 

[Rival]

The Judas business is just another instance of the NT's doing its linking to major figures things - Judah was behind off the selling off of Joseph to the Midianites for 20 shekels, Judas was behind the selling off of Jesus for 30 ‘pieces’ (inflation, probably).

If Reuben had been behind the Joseph event, there’d have been a Reuben Iscariot instead.

I think it's also just a way to blame the Jews as a whole, by having their namesake do it.

 

[Brickjectivity]

what is the purpose of a betrayal of something that is no secret?

Many things the prophets discuss get acted out in the gospels. Judas is one of the twelve and is replaced by Mathias. Possibly Judas' betrayal and doom imitates when one of the tribes of Israel falls away and is restored, because possibly this gets discussed by the prophets in a way that we have overlooked. In this case Judas and Matthias would represent a message of hope rather merely a story about being betrayed. That's one possibility.

Possible tribes Judas represents who may have fallen away at some point: Benjamin, Levi, Dan...few others. I'm not sure.

 

[kaninchen]

I think it's also just a way to blame the Jews as a whole, by having their namesake do it.

Rather like the re-hash of the Moses story using Herod instead of Pharaoh.

I'd argue that there's more to it than that, though. 'Jesus' (as a construct) needed to be fitted into all sorts of themes in the Tanakh.

 

[Rival]

Rather like the re-hash of the Moses story using Herod instead of Pharaoh.

I'd argue that there's more to it than that, though. 'Jesus' (as a construct) needed to be fitted into all sorts of themes in the Tanakh.

It's something I've never understood. If he really were the messiah, there'd be no need for any of this nonsense.

 

[kaninchen]

If he really were the messiah, there'd be no need for any of this nonsense.

Exactly, Jesus fulfilled all the 'prophesies' and analogies that could be created/arranged by text manipulation in order to go much further than 'Messiah' - in order to make a man a god.

 

[Brian2]

The Judas business is just another instance of the NT's doing its linking to major figures things - Judah was behind off the selling off of Joseph to the Midianites for 20 shekels, Judas was behind the selling off of Jesus for 30 ‘pieces’ (inflation, probably).

If Reuben had been behind the Joseph event, there’d have been a Reuben Iscariot instead.

It seems more likely to be linked to Zech 11:12-13
That is what Matthew associates it with (Matt 27:6-10)
But of course you can keep your answer as well as what Matthew said, as you think the whole story was made up by Christians.

 

[Brian2]

Rather like the re-hash of the Moses story using Herod instead of Pharaoh.

I'd argue that there's more to it than that, though. 'Jesus' (as a construct) needed to be fitted into all sorts of themes in the Tanakh.

He does fit into all sorts of themes in the Tanakh. It is amazing how many similarities Jesus has with Moses.

 

[Brian2]

Exactly, Jesus fulfilled all the 'prophesies' and analogies that could be created/arranged by text manipulation in order to go much further than 'Messiah' - in order to make a man a god.

Jesus fitted all the Messianic prophecies that the Jews had not seen as Messianic prophecies, that's all. I would say that God did not want all the Jews of the day to see and hear and come to Jesus to be healed. That is how it appears in Isaiah's commission in Isaiah 6 and also why Jesus said He used parables,,,,,,,,,,,,so that seeing, they would not see and hearing they would not understand.

 

[kaninchen]

But of course you can keep your answer

Oh, 'lit crit' and apologetics can have endless possibilities! What CS Lewis once described as "discovery of the mare's nest by the pursuit of the red herring."

 

[kaninchen]

He does fit into all sorts of themes in the Tanakh. It is amazing how many similarities Jesus has with Moses.

I'd never suggest that the people constructing the NT were untalented.

 

[kaninchen]

so that seeing, they would not see and hearing they would not understand.

We have politicians who say much the same thing.

 

[Brian2]

What would have happened if Judas did not betray Jesus? Why did there need to be a single man who did the betraying...indeed what is even the point of such as betrayal...surely it was no secrete where Jesus went during the night for prayer.

To me it almost seems a rather silly method of betrayal...ie to betray the location of a person who made no secret of his whereabouts most of the time. Lets face it, he had only just entered Jerusalem on a donkey with people shouting and singing and laying down vegetation on his pathway, i would imagine that practically the whole of the city must have heard about his triumphal entry into the city. When the naysayer complained about the noise, the Messiah himself stated that if the people were silenced, the very stones would cry out.

So in light of the above, I look at the old testament sanctuary service, to me it represents almost the entire biblical story in terms of the plan of salvation. So if the sanctuary service is representative of this plan, what part of that service accounts for Judas betrayal? Where does Judas fit into all of this exactly...what is the purpose of a betrayal of something that is no secret?

I think they were looking for an opportunity to seize Jesus when nobody was around. The whole thing was done in secret and probably looked to most that the Jewish leaders did not have much to do with the arrest and death of Jesus.
No doubt everyone eventually knew that, but the job was done and the crowds weren't there at night in a lonely place to stop them.
When Jesus was killed then it was clear that Jesus could not be the Messiah. That is not what they expected from the Messiah.
If the Jewish leaders had known the prophecies and what they meant they would not have killed the author of life.

 

[Redemptionsong]

What would have happened if Judas did not betray Jesus? Why did there need to be a single man who did the betraying...indeed what is even the point of such as betrayal...surely it was no secrete where Jesus went during the night for prayer.

To me it almost seems a rather silly method of betrayal...ie to betray the location of a person who made no secret of his whereabouts most of the time. Lets face it, he had only just entered Jerusalem on a donkey with people shouting and singing and laying down vegetation on his pathway, i would imagine that practically the whole of the city must have heard about his triumphal entry into the city. When the naysayer complained about the noise, the Messiah himself stated that if the people were silenced, the very stones would cry out.

So in light of the above, I look at the old testament sanctuary service, to me it represents almost the entire biblical story in terms of the plan of salvation. So if the sanctuary service is representative of this plan, what part of that service accounts for Judas betrayal? Where does Judas fit into all of this exactly...what is the purpose of a betrayal of something that is no secret?

Psalm 109:8 is said to be a prophecy of Judas. It certainly provides a very powerful message to anyone who encounters the love of Christ, and rejects that love.

As it says in verse 5, 'they have rewarded me evil for good, and hatred for my love'. But the outcome for the wicked and deceitful man is not good [verses 8-15].

 

[MyM]

What would have happened if Judas did not betray Jesus? Why did there need to be a single man who did the betraying...indeed what is even the point of such as betrayal...surely it was no secrete where Jesus went during the night for prayer.

To me it almost seems a rather silly method of betrayal...ie to betray the location of a person who made no secret of his whereabouts most of the time. Lets face it, he had only just entered Jerusalem on a donkey with people shouting and singing and laying down vegetation on his pathway, i would imagine that practically the whole of the city must have heard about his triumphal entry into the city. When the naysayer complained about the noise, the Messiah himself stated that if the people were silenced, the very stones would cry out.

So in light of the above, I look at the old testament sanctuary service, to me it represents almost the entire biblical story in terms of the plan of salvation. So if the sanctuary service is representative of this plan, what part of that service accounts for Judas betrayal? Where does Judas fit into all of this exactly...what is the purpose of a betrayal of something that is no secret?

In Islam, no one is held accountable for another person's sin. Simple. Actually, it says that in the Bible as well.

 

[Rival]

He does fit into all sorts of themes in the Tanakh. It is amazing how many similarities Jesus has with Moses.

This is not a "thing" though. Fitting into Tanakh "themes" is a wholly Christian idea in order to obfuscate the fact that Jesus didn't fulfil what he should have. No-one was ever looking for a person who "fit Tanakh themes".

 

[RabbiO]

If the Jewish leaders had known the prophecies and what they meant they would not have killed the author of life.

So, if I understand you correctly, your position, as articulated here and elsewhere, has been, and remains, that Jews, as a whole, are spiritually blind, spiritually stupid, spiritually ignorant Christ killers who follow a path, Judaism, that G-d has given the finger to and removed the legitimacy of.

Did I get that right?

 

[Redemptionsong]

So, if I understand you correctly, your position, as articulated here and elsewhere, has been, and remains, that Jews, as a whole, are spiritually blind, spiritually stupid, spiritually ignorant Christ killers who follow a path, Judaism, that G-d has given the finger to and removed the legitimacy of.

Did I get that right?

Well, l'd say that you're not far wrong!

I'd have replaced the word 'stupid' with 'stubborn'!

There are loads of well-educated, articulate, Jesus-stumbling Jews.

I'd also have said that God offers a new way of being obedient to the law, rather than saying it's 'removed'.

The apostle Paul, the most zealous of Jews, quoted David [Psalm 69], saying, 'Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:' [The whole of Romans 11 is worth a read!].

 

[wellwisher]

Judas was someone who was similar to a modern bureaucrat, who was making a political calculation for his own career advancement. He placed his finger in the wind of politics du jour. He bet on the Old Way remaining and that the New Way would be a flash in the pan, if Jesus was gone. In the end, he realizes his miscalculation, and sees his future and career doomed, so he takes his own life.

Judah epitomized one of there main pitfalls of the law, since politicians and lawyers often made and used law for their own personal gain. Defense lawyers could be paid to interpret the law in ways to justify railroading even an innocent person. Judah realizes that politics and laws was not the dominant force in religion, rather it was fate as preordained by God and spoke of by the prophets. Jesus needed to suffer these things to overcome Satan. These things would help to point out the pitfalls of law, which is connected to Satan and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. God never condoned law in Eden. He warned against law. But Satan seduced the humans to think law was good.

Before Jesus began his ministry, he went into the desert to pray and fast. During that time, Jesus is visited by Satan, who among other things, promises Jesus all the wealth and kingdoms of the world, if Jesus would bow and serve him. Had Jesus accepted the offer, he could have become the Messiah anticipated by the Jews from the Old Testament prophesies; rich, powerful, miraculous,, and able to subdue all enemies.

Jesus, does not say that Satan does not have the authority to give him this, but rather Jesus declines the offer. Jesus had a choice. Jesus, by declining the offer to be the expected Messiah, becomes something better. The choice was better due to technically for-filling the prophesy. Jesus improved upon the anticipated Messiah, since Jesus, even to death, would not be subservient to Satan and Law as the Messiah was expected to be. This creates political problems for Satan, who would be thrown from heaven in the future; Revelations.

According to law, the worse punishment is the death penalty. Once you are dead, there is nothing more law can do to you, since the ultimate sacrifice has been made. When Jesus died and rose from the dead, he was no longer under law; double jeopardy. He was officially declared dead by the law. Jesus found a way to overcome Satan and the law; dead but alive, causing an upheaval in Heaven's politics. Satan and a third of the angels would be thrown from heaven to make a final stand for law.

As history shows, law does not go away, even though it is no longer condoned in heaven after Satan is thrown out. However, humans would continue to make self serving laws for profit and power. With Satan no longer in heaven, law does not have the same blessing of heaven; no longer divine law. It is more godless law; Atheism and separation of religion by politics. The righteous man would need to live by faith in the Holy Spirit; intuitions; living and evolving religion based on faith. The Catholic Church would rise and fall then ebb and flow based on a living spirit of change.