Man's freewill and God's divine sovereignty

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Outside of God's control was: Adam's free-will choices; voluntary choices.

That makes no sense.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

That makes no sense.

It makes ' common sense ' for a loving God to Not force anyone to love or worship Him.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I like how you mention ^ above ^ (three times) that one's soul is a neuter "IT" .
Just as one's 'spirit' is also a neuter 'it' at Ecclesiastes 12:7 B.
Adam 'did Not have a soul' because Adam was: a soul a living person - Genesis 2:7
Adam 'did Not possess a soul', rather Adam 'became' a living soul, a living person until he died.

You are just nitpicking about the meaning of "soul".
I use the word in reference to a non-physical entity that can also be called the spirit.
..and then some people talk about a spirit world and woo.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
soul: noun

the spiritual or immaterial part of a human being or animal, regarded as immortal.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It makes ' common sense ' for a loving God to Not force anyone to love or worship Him.

No, I was talking about something else.

"Free will" is about our ability to choose between our desires. It isn't about choosing what our desires are. "Free will" can only lead us to do evil things if we have the desire to do evil... and our desires are beyond our control.

Do you think our desires are within God's control?

- if yes, then why did you think God gave humans the desire to do evil?
- if no, then where did humans' desire to do evil come from? It wasn't "free will," because our desires aren't chosen by our free will.

 

[muhammad_isa]

"Free will" can only lead us to do evil things if we have the desire to do evil... and our desires are beyond our control.

Do you think our desires are within God's control?

- if yes, then why did you think God gave humans the desire to do evil?

That is the same as asking why G-d didn't force us to obey Him.

Perhaps you'd like to tell me why?
Why don't you want to listen to G-d?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Why don't you want to listen to G-d?

I think you misunderstood my position.

I'm not refusing to listen to God; I don't think there's any God to listen to.

What I'm doing is pointing out that your arguments - and @URAVIP2ME 's arguments - aren't even internally consistent.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I think you misunderstood my position.

I'm not refusing to listen to God; I don't think there's any God to listen to.

It's the same thing as far as G-d is concerned. He created us, and He knows why we say what we say.

We're not talking about any specific religion .. we're talking about our Maker.

Now, you may say that we are just biological machines and all we see is coincidence. G-d knows why we might say that is a rational conclusion. He knows what we might be hiding.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It's the same thing as far as G-d is concerned. He created us, and He knows why we say what we say.

We're not talking about any specific religion .. we're talking about our Maker.

Now, you may say that we are just biological machines and all we see is coincidence. G-d knows why we might say that is a rational conclusion. He knows what we might be hiding.

Rather than inventing an argument that you presume I would make, how about you try to address the problems with the one you're making?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

You are just nitpicking about the meaning of "soul".
I use the word in reference to a non-physical entity that can also be called the spirit.
..and then some people talk about a spirit world and woo.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
soul: noun the spiritual or immaterial part of a human being or animal, regarded as immortal.

Yes, the ^ above ^ is the definition of the word ' soul ' but 'Not found in the Bible' but just taught as being biblical.
Remember: as the ancient people migrated away from ancient Babylon they spread their religious ideas throughout the world.
This is why we see so many similar or overlapping Babylonian religious ideas spread around today's world.
Adam was a biblical soul or person, and at his death Adam became a dead soul, a dead person.
A living soul or spirit does Not need a resurrection. Resurrection is for the dead.
Soul immortality teaches the dead are more alive after death then before death which is Not biblical.
I find Jesus and the OT both teach the dead are in a sleep-like unconscious state.

( John 11:11-14; Psalms 6:5; Psalms 13:3; Psalms 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5 )

 

[muhammad_isa]

I find Jesus and the OT both teach the dead are in a sleep-like unconscious state.

Well I don't.
I don't see any point in endless throwing backwards and forwards of certain verses. I have the Qur'an too. It leaves me in no doubt.
I'm also aware of Catholic orthodox doctrine, and they believe in the Bible too.

 

[lukethethird]

Man's freewill and God's divine sovereignty
Looks like man got the short stick.

 

[KWED]

"God will not impede man's freewill." I've heard this excuse, and other similar ones, time and time again from many devout theists (Christians, Bahá'i), who attempt to defend God's abhorrent cruelty and apathy towards immeasurable human suffering. Personally speaking, I think this excuse is a total cop-out. It's a cop-out to purposely defend God knowing about the reprehensible, inhumane atrocities that either God ordered himself or he allowed to happen and did nothing to intervene. The Holocaust comes to mind.

Instead of blaming God, the creator, these devout theists will blame the creation, mankind and Satan. They adamantly refuse to blame God, who has infinite knowledge (omniscience), infinite power (omnipotent), and he is ever-present (omnipresence). In other words, God had foreknowledge of every tragedy and atrocities throughout human history, and yet, he allowed these horrific events to take place, and he didn't stop any of it. Personally speaking, I think it's beyond disgusting, cruel and sadistic. There's no excuse.

I've said all of that to say this...

If I saw another person being physically attacked, I'm not going to turn a blind eye and think, "I'm not going to try and save this poor person from being physically attacked (beaten up, raped, or killed) because I don't want to impede on their attacker's freewill!" And I'm not going to think, "I'm not going to try and save this innocent child from being abused because I don't want to impede on their abuser's freewill!" I would be a depraved, callous, cold-blooded monster if I refused to do whatever I could to save another person's life. Lastly, I don't blame humanity or Satan for the fallen world we live in. I blame God, the infinite creator, who foreknew that man and Satan would fall into total depravity and destruction. I blame God, who admitted he creates disasters and calamities (Is. 45:7).

God is responsible for the fallen world, and that's where the real blame lies, not with humanity or with Satan.

If any person in a position of authority and trust (doctor, police, teacher, etc) behaved the way god does they would be reprimanded, probably sacked, and possibly prosecuted.

 

[KWED]

Well, if you are correct in your perspective then what is your solution?
I can only see two options. One, God could have made robotic humans who are programmed with only the ability to function under God controlling their every thought and action for good. Two, God would not have created anyone. Obviously, since neither of those scenarios are what we see, then God did want to create living beings and He wanted these beings to have freedom of thought and choice. He also did reveal clear guidelines for right or wrong actions, which for the most part and throughout history humanity fails to heed.

Firstly, I agree with you that there was no need for god to create anything in the first place so he is ultimately responsible for what happens in the universe in the same way that a cat breeder, not the other cats, who is responsible for the cats' welfare and safety.

Secondly, the concept of free-will and responsibility cannot work where the god employs predestination or has infallible foreknowledge of all events

Thirdly much of those guidelines are derived from regional and historical cultural behaviour rather than on a rational approach, and therefore rely on an existing belief in the existence of that god for them to make any sense.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Well I don't.
I don't see any point in endless throwing backwards and forwards of certain verses. I have the Qur'an too. It leaves me in no doubt. I'm also aware of Catholic orthodox doctrine, and they believe in the Bible too.

How can anyone say they believe in the Bible and then teach what the Bible does Not teach _______
Such as: an actual hell fire for the dead.
Burning forever I find does Not match being ' destroyed forever ' - see Bible Psalms 92:7; Psalms 104:35
Burning forever does Not match 2 Peter 3:9 that says ' repent ' or ' perish' (<- perish means: destroyed )
In the Bible thus ' fire ' is also symbolic or stands for: annihilation.
Even wicked Satan is Not immortal. Sinner Satan was never in hell. Jesus will destroy Satan - Hebrews 2:14 B
It is Not an endless throwing back or forth certain verses but by corresponding subject or topic arrangement.
The Bible is Not written in alphabetical ABC order so we need to research by one subject or topic at a time.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Burning forever I find does Not match being ' destroyed forever ' -

What's the point then?
Why should we go through a life of suffering, if we can just commit suicide and just cease to be?

If we simply cease to be, the atheists are right.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

If any person in a position of authority and trust (doctor, police, teacher, etc) behaved the way god does they would be reprimanded, probably sacked, and possibly prosecuted.

I'll say that if any person in a position of authority were to behave the way God has behaved, then this person would be a deranged sadistic, bloodthirsty psychopath, This person would be convicted of countless crimes against humanity, and they would be guilty of committing mass genocide. Such a morally depraved person would make Adolph Hitler look like Mother Teresa.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I'll say that if any person in a position of authority were to behave the way God has behaved..

That would be impossible.
Human beings can't even create a fly.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

That would be impossible.
Human beings can't even create a fly.

You're right about that, but it's not impossible. Let's not forget that most human beings can create baby humans.

 

[InChrist]

Firstly, I agree with you that there was no need for god to create anything in the first place so he is ultimately responsible for what happens in the universe in the same way that a cat breeder, not the other cats, who is responsible for the cats' welfare and safety.

Secondly, the concept of free-will and responsibility cannot work where the god employs predestination or has infallible foreknowledge of all events

Thirdly much of those guidelines are derived from regional and historical cultural behaviour rather than on a rational approach, and therefore rely on an existing belief in the existence of that god for them to make any sense.

First- you’ll have to take the issue up with God, I suppose. If God didn’t decide to create you; you wouldn’t even be here to complain or find fault with how things were created.

Second- just because God KNOWS the future does not mean God CAUSES a person to act in certain ways or interferes with someone’s freedom to make choices. I don’t think you understand the biblical concept of predestination.

Third- what kind of guidelines are you referring to? Certainly guidelines prohibiting murder or stealing appear to be quite universal throughout history, in all cultures, making sense and benefiting society.

 

[KWED]

Such a morally depraved person would make Adolph Hitler look like Mother Teresa.

Bojaxhiu wasn't the saint some try to make her out to be. She was also a self-serving, sociopathic monster in her own right.