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Baha'i and Messengers

Sheldon

Veteran Member
"Information"
I am not going to reply anymore to comments made in ill will toward religion.
I believe that participation in this debate forum is not mandatory. Though if you want an echo chamber, this does seem an odd place to seek it? However you must do as you are minded to, it is much easier to preserve core beliefs, if we ringfence them from critical scrutiny, and one of the ways religions have always done this is by making the asinine claim "beliefs (religious) must be respected. I have never agreed with this, and think any and all beliefs should be accorded as much respect as they are merited, and not what adherents of a belief insist it deserves.
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
I believe that participation in this debate forum is not mandatory. Though if you want an echo chamber, this does seem an odd place to seek it? However you must do as you are minded to, it is much easier to preserve core beliefs, if we ringfence them from critical scrutiny, and one of the ways religions have always done this is by making the asinine claim "beliefs (religious) must be respected. I have never agreed with this, and think any and all beliefs should be accorded as much respect as they are merited, and not what adherents of a belief insist it deserves.
I just dont need atheists to tell me what I can or can not believe in. Or should or should not believe in. Because it suits or does not suit them.

Atheists has nothing to give that is worth listen to when it comes to spiritual lifestyle. Nada.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
I just dont need atheists to tell me what I can or can not believe in. Or should or should not believe in. Because it suits or does not suit them.
Yet you engage with atheists for some reason. Perhaps you are conflicted and atheists ask you questions you fear asking yourself?

Atheists has nothing to give that is worth listen to when it comes to spiritual lifestyle. Nada.
We can tell you about our hobbies.

But who says hearing about "spiritual lifestyles" from theists is what others are eager to hear about (unless you're from the same religious tribe)?
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
That doesn't mean anything without some explanation. You posted that sentence/claim for a reason. Perhaps you don't know why you did it.

Could it be it's not true, and you are just writing it as a means to convince yourself you are free somehow?
How much is it going to help an atheist in listening to a theist answer, when all you guys are going to do is to refuse what is said? Absolutely nothing at all.

Honestly I do not think any of the Atheist in this thread is here to learn. Only to disturbe.

This is why there is no need to even try to explain anything more to you guys.
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
Yet you engage with atheists for some reason. Perhaps you are conflicted and atheists ask you questions you fear asking yourself?


We can tell you about our hobbies.

But who says hearing about "spiritual lifestyles" from theists is what others are eager to hear about (unless you're from the same religious tribe)?
You can think what you want.
I am not scare of atheists. Just tired of you guys dont actually listen to what is told to you. And just call it fallacy or wrong, or cant be true because you can not understand that there is more to life then your eyse see, ( what spiritual people believe in)

This is why I no longer going to reply to you.

The end.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
How much is it going to help an atheist in listening to a theist answer, when all you guys are going to do is to refuse what is said? Absolutely nothing at all.
Are we obligated to accept what you say? We tend to point out errors of your thinking, and how some of your beliefs and claims are inconsistent with what we humans observe of reality. So what do you expect, we thinkers to abandon objective thought, truth, accuracy, facts, etc.? If theists had truth it will be consistent with facts, knowledge, and what we can understand about existence through our normal and unabridged sensory experiences. We don't see that from theists.

Honestly I do not think any of the Atheist in this thread is here to learn. Only to disturbe.
Atheists are open to truth, facts, data, and explanations and arguments that are consistent with what we humans observe of reality. When we recognize inconsistencies our thinking ask questions. these are questions theists tend to dislike.

This is why there is no need to even try to explain anything more to you guys.
You ignore that the fault is yours for making claims without facts, and that are not consistent with what we humans observe of reality.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
You can think what you want.
I am not scare of atheists. Just tired of you guys dont actually listen to what is told to you. And just call it fallacy or wrong, or cant be true because you can not understand that there is more to life then your eyse see, ( what spiritual people believe in)

This is why I no longer going to reply to you.

The end.
Not the sort of attitude a person with the truth and God on their side, is it?

Perhaps it is you that is refusing to learn.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I
You may think you have free will, but if god predetermines any event, then you have no free will in that respect. Any "choice" you make is inevitable.

This is a fundamentally wrong assumption about the way God works the plan for humanity. Our fate is in our hands.

Prior knowledge of an event is not its cause. What can be done is plan for those events, all the while giving us free will choice.

As God knows the endgame, God can give us the required choices to divert our own destructive mind.

It is sad to see men choose predudices, greed and war when there is always the choice not to.

Regards Tony
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
This all has no bearing on the basic ethics and morality of Christianity or Judaism. All of the religions have the same spiritual message, but not the same dogma by the followers.
Any religious group can have basic ethics and morality and have some crazy story about their Gods. Take for instance the Mormons. Nice people. They send their kids out to teach and help others. But then the Book of Mormon has Jesus visiting the lost tribes or Israel in America.
When we read the Bible, we see no direct mention of the book of Mormon. But when we read the book of Mormon we see more answers to the question…
In the Apocrypha book it is revealed that the bulk of the Ten tribes of Israel sailed to a land which we can safely say is the modern day Americas today.
There is also mention in the New testament by the Messiah after his resurrection that he had to go and visit the other lost sheep.
I think that each culture and people made up their own Gods and religions. And since I would assume Baha'is don't believe the Greek, Egyptian, Aztec and other religions aren't true, and if that is so, then at least for some religions Baha'is would agree with me. I just include the some of the major religions in there also. And by making some, or most all of the stories in the Scriptures in the other religions, symbolic, Baha'is don't believe those stories really happened either. So, somebody made them up. I think it was the spiritual and religious leaders of the culture, and who do Baha'is say came up with those stories? For instance, the parting of the seas? God? Moses? Or the storytellers?

And sure, there can be some metaphorical meaning to the Bible stories, but I think they were written to be believed as literal. So, now what do we do with them? People living hundreds of years. A world-wide flood. Giants in the land. For me, it's fine. It's myth. It was meant to be believed but the stories were true. The message was to get people to believe and fear an invisible God that can strike them dead in an instant. So, they better believe in him and follow his rules.

For me, there's just too many stories, including the resurrection of Jesus, that Baha'is have to make "metaphorical". But what was the metaphorical meaning? I don't think it's that important to Baha'is. Because the main thing is that those stories are explained away. We don't have to worry about them. They didn't really happen. And then if someone asks, "Well, doesn't that make the Bible a lie?" The Baha'is answer is "no"... The stories aren't "literally" true. They are "metaphorically" true. But that's an awful lot of metaphors. And that just in the Bible. Add to that the Scriptures of the other religions. But sure, the basic ethics and morality are similar in most all religions.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I do not believe for a second humans are animals. If you believe you are an animal that is of course up to you :)

You are correct, the human spirit is created as a rational soul with the potential of all attributes.

The human spirit encompasses the vegetable and animal spirit, as we share this creation and world with those powers of growth.

Our choices determine what we reflect in this world, do we aim to be godlike, or do we become lower then the animal with satanic choices?

Regards Tony
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
You are correct, the human spirit is created as a rational soul with the potential of all attributes.

The human spirit encompasses the vegetable and animal spirit, as we share this creation and world with those powers of growth.

Our choices determine what we reflect in this world, do we aim to be godlike, or do we become lower then the animal with satanic choices?

Regards Tony
Fully agree with you Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The view a Baha'i has been given about the Messengers of God is that they are of an uncalcuable number, who are throughout all of creation.

It can be seen as they are the stars of creation who's power comes from God. Each of these stars can be known by many names, but the source of their light is but one source, God.

So the names of God are incalculable.

Thus it is easy to see why a finite human mind limited to this world, can see that One Source of the light that shines upon us, as many sources. It is our attachment to names, or to specific attributes of a name, that cause the division. When we choose to see God is the source of all names, we in turn become one.

Likewise, this topic has an incalculable ways of being presented and discussed.

Regards Tony
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
This is a fundamentally wrong assumption about the way God works the plan for humanity. Our fate is in our hands.

Prior knowledge of an event is not its cause. What can be done is plan for those events, all the while giving us free will choice.

As God knows the endgame, God can give us the required choices to divert our own destructive mind.

It is sad to see men choose predudices, greed and war when there is always the choice not to.

Regards Tony
I am not talking about infallible omniscience (although that also effectively fixes future outcomes). I am talking about predestination. When god decides the outcome of events.

"Know thou, O fruit of My Tree, that the decrees of the Sovereign Ordainer, as related to fate and predestination, are of two kinds. Both are to be obeyed and accepted. The one is irrevocable, the other is, as termed by men, impending. To the former all must unreservedly submit, inasmuch as it is fixed and settled." - Bahaullah

"Fate is of two kinds: one is decreed, and the other is conditional or impending. The decreed fate is that which cannot change or be altered, and conditional fate is that which may occur." - Abdul Baha

Given this, where is the free-will to change that future?
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
I


This is a fundamentally wrong assumption about the way God works the plan for humanity. Our fate is in our hands.

Prior knowledge of an event is not its cause.
It is if you are the creator. Are you confirming that God isn't the creator?

If you design an engine that you know will fail at 10,000 miles, and your claim and intent is that you want it to last 100,000 miles, and you are capable of fixing the flaw, then you are responsible for the engines that fail at 10K. You can't blame the engines for operating as they are designed for the failure that is part of the design, and then be disappointed in the engines because you had plans for them to last 100K.

This illustrates the flaw in the design Westerners allowed when it created this God.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
I just dont need atheists to tell me what I can or can not believe in. Or should or should not believe in. Because it suits or does not suit them.
Atheists will not tell you that you can't believe what you want to believe. However, they may well point out flaws in your belief. These two things are entirely not the same.

Atheists has nothing to give that is worth listen to when it comes to spiritual lifestyle. Nada.
Perhaps you just need to be more open-minded?
 
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