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Ask About Islam

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
Nope I don't feel less intelligent for not believing mankind evolved from apes, just the contrary, those who believe such things haven't read the Quran with open mind. They haven't checked out the beauty of the sciences in the Quran. I can give you a list if you want to start :) literal interpretations ...if proven correct as my Creator said so, of course literal...but Quran doesn't just come with words from Allah, we have the ahadiths that tell us and explain to us the Quran-no other religious book has that claim that can be proven back to the prophet pbuh himself. That way it isn't just for men to opinionize their own interpretations. In Islam, you are not allowed to do that.

So, apes, come on...apes! Quit monkeying around :p
But you are essentially hobbling yourself when you feel you have to dismiss much of accepted science simply because you apparently believe in a literal view of some religious text. It's just that when you do so - as to the age of the universe, the Earth, or humans, for example - then much else doesn't make sense too. But if one accepts what is considered normative science - with some allowance for science never being completely accurate and always open to revision - then it is much easier to have a consistent view of all that is around one.

Anyway, that is how I am able to be without so much inner conflict even though I do recognise the many issues that humans bring with their existence. It all makes much more sense when we look at where we have come from as a species as to our behaviour and where we might be headed. As I said, I'm sure many with religious beliefs do manage to accept much of science and hence fare better than those who don't.

My little monkey image means something else to me but could equally mean being appalled at the direction that his cousins have taken - as to numerous conflicting religions. :oops:
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Love how I presented a detailed response to your points, but you only respond to one small element, and that response is utterly meaningless. :tearsofjoy:

I'm afraid that is his MO, he makes endless claims that amount to little more than proselytising his beliefs, then when challenged resorts to editing out and ignoring posts he has no answer to. Then his answers become increasing condescending and flippant and eventually resort to ad hominem.

It's the religious apologists version of taking their ball home.
 
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MyM

Well-Known Member
So not an omnipotent deity then, clearly. Talking of logic, what does it mean when a belief contains two contradictory ideas at the same time?

JYrZOW4.jpg
For you? Species evolution is as well evidenced a scientific fact as any we have, denying it is no less absurd than denying the rotundity of the earth. You might want to question any belief that requires that level of denial, though I'm guessing that kind of objective introspection would be impossible for you.

However if you really do want to understand the facts, here is a <LINK> for you, what have you got to lose? The talk origins website has a massive database of evidence supporting species evolution, and also debunks a lot of creationist canards, I'v set it to open at "why are there still apes?" just for you...


"If we are descended from apes, why are there still apes around?

Response:

  1. Humans and other apes are descended from a common ancestor whose population split to become two (and more) lineages. The question is rather like asking, "If many Americans and Australians are descended from Europeans, why are there still Europeans around?" Creationists themselves recognize the invalidity of this claim (AIG n.d.)."


Well, humans do not evolve into apes lol But humans do come from other humans not apes :p
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Actually yes, he did have more. He was married to Khadija his first wife and the mother of his children. He was age 25 and she was 40. A very rich women in her time and had her business. He never married anyone else while she was alive. It was a very sad time when she passed away. His wives were blessings and they were also necessary and helped the outcome of situations.

He was a prophet of Allah. He was entitled and given that privilege by Allah. Some were married for necessities and some helped the political arena etc. But the wisdom, Allah knows.

And Allah knows best :)

He also "married" a child, and had sex with her at 9 years old. Do you think it is ever moral to rape a 9 year old child? Or perhaps you think a 9 year old child can give informed consent? That seems like a pretty fair description of a paedophile to me.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Well, humans do not evolve into apes lol But humans do come from other humans not apes :p
One more time then, humans are apes, and they evolved from apes. Again denying this scientific fact is beyond absurd. I always feel a little sorry for people that indoctrinated, but if you follow the link I offered it has a large database of the evidence supporting the scientific fact of species evolution.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Please, why do you continue in such a hatred manner? We don't take our religion from wikipedia. You may but we don't.

Please stop making fun of muslims and their religion.
There was nothing hateful in that remark, though the observation was disparaging of your posts, and since this is a debate forum it's bizarre to object to that. You can't ringfence any ideas from critical scrutiny, least of in a public debate forum.

Also the source is not strictly relevant, as the claims can be fact checked, so your rant about Wikipedia is meaningless. If someone posts something that is incorrect, then demonstrate it is so with evidence.
 

muhammad_isa

Well-Known Member
Again denying this scientific fact is beyond absurd. I always feel a little sorry for people that indoctrinated, but if you follow the link I offered it has a large database of the evidence supporting the scientific fact of species evolution.
Life originates all from the same origin.
We can say that all lifeforms evolved from the same source, but we cannot say exactly how this occurred.
Many believers and disbelievers claim that they can, and are both wrong, imo. :)

Some people are "literalist Bible thumpers" and others play with their test-tubes.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
He also "married" a child, and had sex with her at 9 years old. Do you think it is ever moral to rape a 9 year old child? Or perhaps you think a 9 year old child can give informed consent? That seems like a pretty fair description of a paedophile to me.
The argument seems to be along the lines of "consent of a child is valid after grooming".
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
We don't take our religion from wikipedia. You may but we don't.
1. Genetic fallacy. You are dismissing an argument because of its source, not its content.
2. So you reject anything about Islam on Wikipedia as false?

Please stop making fun of muslims and their religion.
To quote Homer... "If you're gonna get mad at me every time I do something stupid, I guess I'm gonna have to stop doing stupid things". ;)
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The Quran doesn't mention any "prosecution" [sic], just "We have nothing to do with you and with those whom you worship besides God." It only mentions idolatry.

Yes it does, it's revealing this in context (as the other verses show) of Mohammad's (s) followers being prosecuted. You have to contextualize. We can deduce if Ibrahim's (a) people similarly weren't oppressors and didn't prosecute them, they would not be destroyed nor forbidden to love them. Ibrahim's (a) followers were taught to give ultimatum, believe now or be destroyed, like many destroyed nations, and God destroyed many people in the past. The fact that destroyed nations usually if not always were destroyed when God delivers the believers from their oppressors is mentioned through out Quran. The people of Ibrahim (a) are mentioned as one of those destroyed people in Quran.

The verses after show however God can bring love between them (believers and their enemies) and shows it was only forbidden to those who were oppressive towards them for their religion.

You just go to read and contextualize it all.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
In Islam, believing that theory and believing in that Allah didn't create mankind, would constitute shirk.

So what's wrong with the more sophisticated approach of saying that evolution was the instrument / method Allah used to create humans?

That at least wouldn't require you to stick your head in the sand to ignore the facts of biological reality.
Because make no mistake, common ancestry of species is not "just a theory". It's a genetic fact. An independently verifiable, objective, fact. Evolution theory details the mechanism by which this occurs. Common ancestry of species, is one of the facts that evolution explains.

He created life

Just so you know, since you obviously don't realize: evolution addresses the origins of species, not the origins of life.

To say that Allah created "first life" and it evolved from their is actually perfectly compatible with evolution and thus the facts of reality.

Off course, you'll only be able to say that and not be in conflict with established science until science solves the puzzle of abiogenesis as well ...


and then denying that would put you in danger of Hellfire unless you acknowledge that Allah is the creator of all.

So............. accepting the facts of genetics, and thus being rational and using your intelligent brain, is -in your religion- a good enough and just reason to deserve eternal punishment?

Really?

So yes, you must denounce that "theory" of evolution and believe in the oneness of Allah.

What other established science must one "denounce"?
Germ theory of desease?
Theory of relativity?
Theory of plate tectonics?
Atomic theory?
...
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
By searching for him and looking within for him and praying to him so he shows his existence.

Funny. That's the same method by which you can find Neo to pull you out of the matrix.
You should try it.

And remember: if it doesn't work, it doesn't mean that Neo doesn't exist. It just means that you did it wrong.
 

MyM

Well-Known Member
He also "married" a child, and had sex with her at 9 years old. Do you think it is ever moral to rape a 9 year old child? Or perhaps you think a 9 year old child can give informed consent? That seems like a pretty fair description of a paedophile to me.


I have already covered this topic.
 

MyM

Well-Known Member
One more time then, humans are apes, and they evolved from apes. Again denying this scientific fact is beyond absurd. I always feel a little sorry for people that indoctrinated, but if you follow the link I offered it has a large database of the evidence supporting the scientific fact of species evolution.

Sorry NOT sorry. We did not evolve from apes. Pigs are 84% lol you gonna say people came from pigs as well?

It's all based on theory. Not proven that mankind came from apes.

I don't want to debate.
 

MyM

Well-Known Member
There was nothing hateful in that remark, though the observation was disparaging of your posts, and since this is a debate forum it's bizarre to object to that. You can't ringfence any ideas from critical scrutiny, least of in a public debate forum.

Also the source is not strictly relevant, as the claims can be fact checked, so your rant about Wikipedia is meaningless. If someone posts something that is incorrect, then demonstrate it is so with evidence.


Debat
Forget apes for a second.

Do you acknowledge that humans are mammals?

I do not want to debate where I came from. I will never believe I came from an ape. You cannot prove we did. I have on the other hand, the Quran by Allah. You can ridicule my intelligence and you can mock me and my religion, but I know I am not on the same level as an ape.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Life originates all from the same origin.

I have no idea what that means, but is demonstrably a bare unevidenced claim. Evolution has nothing to do with the origin of life, if you have even the most basic understanding of species evolution you know that. Evolution explains and the scientific theory evidences, the origin of species.


We can say that all lifeforms evolved from the same source, but we cannot say exactly how this occurred.

The theory of evolution and natural selection explain how this happened?

Many believers and disbelievers claim that they can, and are both wrong, imo. :)

Claim that they can what? Wrong about what?

Some people are "literalist Bible thumpers" and others play with their test-tubes.

Oranges are sweet, since we are now simply posting irrelevant non sequiturs.
 
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