Once a christian, always a christian

[ChristineM]

Pretty weak evidence imo. I could probably Google some photos of Josef Stalin with a senior Orthodox cleric. Do you think Stalin was Christian?

Of course you think its weak evidence, it goes against your belief of even weaker evidence. It seems you are taken in by the revisionist history written in the 80s by "christian" historians. Or maybe you think photographs lie or have been manipulated.

I know Stalin was Christian but of course many those same revisionist historians have got to the true history and altered it to suite their confirmation bias, like with Hitler, by taking juicy snippets they like and playing them up in favour of any bits that shine a poor light on Christianity.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Of course you think its weak evidence, it goes against your belief of even weaker evidence. It seems you are taken in by the revisionist history written in the 80s by "christian" historians. Or maybe you think photographs lie or have been manipulated.

I know Stalin was Christian but of course many those same revisionist historians have got to the true history and altered it to suite their confirmation bias, like with Hitler, by taking juicy snippets they like and playing them up in favour of any bits that shine a poor light on Christianity.

What revisionist historians are these? Would be handy to know who I've supposedly been taken in by.

Stalin was raised in a devout Orthodox family, but became a hardline atheist in adulthood. Which of his actions shines a poor light on Christianity?

 

[ChristineM]

What revisionist historians are these? Would be handy to know who I've supposedly been taken in by.

Stalin was raised in a devout Orthodox family, but became a hardline atheist in adulthood. Which of his actions shines a poor light on Christianity?

Just about any history written after the 1970s

Stalin wws considered the only christian in the the Kremlin
After the revolution and his cementing of power he reopened the seminaries and was instrumental in reopening 20,000 churches.
He kept christian books on his book shelves and according to his daughter read them often.
He donated millions of rubals to the orthodox church.
His funeral was officiated by not 1, not 2 but 3 orthodox bishops. Why would an atheist dictator be given such a lavish Christian funeral?

Do these acts sound like the acts of an atheist?

Of course it was claimed by a student buddy of stalins after his death that stalin said "you know they are fooling us, there was s no god". Sorry i don't hold much faith is hearsay evidence when the one accused cannot respond.

I think you are making the typical mistake of confusing nationalism with atheism

 

[Revoltingest]

Take the atheist argument of since Hitler was raised a christian he stayed a christian. Does that hold any truth?

If that's true how many of you here are really atheists? I mean if you were raised a christian/in a religion, doesn't that mean you are still that?

That misrepresents arguments that Hitler was a Christian.
The simplistic underlined argument ignores the great
many indicators during his rise to & exercise of power.
Ref....
Religious views of Adolf Hitler - Wikipedia

 

[Twilight Hue]

Take the atheist argument of since Hitler was raised a christian he stayed a christian. Does that hold any truth?

If that's true how many of you here are really atheists? I mean if you were raised a christian/in a religion, doesn't that mean you are still that?

I, like so many others, belong to that unique club of being exchristian. No more grape juice and crakers for me every Sunday.

Of course, still being under Christian 'jurisdiction', we all are destined for hell though. Unimaginable gawdawful horrors await us poor exchristians who have led our christian brothers and sisters of the faith astray.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Just about any history written after the 1970s

Stalin wws considered the only christian in the the Kremlin
After the revolution and his cementing of power he reopened the seminaries and was instrumental in reopening 20,000 churches.
He kept christian books on his book shelves and according to his daughter read them often.
He donated millions of rubals to the orthodox church.
His funeral was officiated by not 1, not 2 but 3 orthodox bishops. Why would an atheist dictator be given such a lavish Christian funeral?

Do these acts sound like the acts of an atheist?

Of course it was claimed by a student buddy of stalins after his death that stalin said "you know they are fooling us, there was s no god". Sorry i don't hold much faith is hearsay evidence when the one accused cannot respond.

I think you are making the typical mistake of confusing nationalism with atheism

Next you’ll be telling me Chairman Mao was a Taoist.

Stalin only re-instituted the Orthodox church when the Nazis were at the gates of Moscow, because he understood the effect this would have on the morale of the common people. Up until then the Soviets routinely destroyed churches, synagogues and mosques. Thousands of clergy died or were sent to Siberia in the years between the civil war and WWII

Is Anthony Beevor a revisionist historian btw?

 

[ChristineM]

Next you’ll be telling me Chairman Mao was a Taoist.

Stalin only re-instituted the Orthodox church when the Nazis were at the gates of Moscow, because he understood the effect this would have on the morale of the common people. Up until then the Soviets routinely destroyed churches, synagogues and mosques. Thousands of clergy died or were sent to Siberia in the years between the civil war and WWII

Of the dreaded four Mao is the only one who renounced his religion

That is not true, he began rebuilding the church in the early 30s. But redoubled his efforts as nazi Germany began making inroads to Russia. I think you need to realise that gathering/training clergy, building and opening churches is not done overnight

Yes, many clergy were killed, you forgot to mention why. No, not because they were leaders of religion but because they were leaders of decent against the government. At that time gatherings of greater than 6 people was illegal.

 

[Augustus]

What revisionist historians are these? Would be handy to know who I've supposedly been taken in by.

Stalin was raised in a devout Orthodox family, but became a hardline atheist in adulthood. Which of his actions shines a poor light on Christianity?

Even the worst of the historically illiterate anti-theist blowhards such as Christopher Hitchens accept that Stalin was an atheist.

Not surprising given the fact that not only was one of the biggest persecutors of Christianity in history, closed 98% of the churches by 1940, enacted an "atheist 5 year plan" and also wrote a foundational Soviet text on an explicitly atheistic philosophy: Dialectical and Historical Materialism - Wikipedia

He was actually an atheist from his youth as noted by the Priests at the seminary he attended:

The seminary journal reports that Stalin declared himself an atheist, stalked out of prayers, chatted in class, was late for tea and refused to doff his hat to monks. He had eleven more warnings... [Stalin] adored Gogol, Saltykov-Shchedrin and Chekhov, whose works he memorized and “could recite by heart.” He admired Tolstoy “but was bored by his Christianity,” later in life scrawling “ha-ha-ha!” beside Tolstoyan musings on redemption and salvation... In his seventies, the dictator was still chuckling about these arguments. “I became an atheist in the first year,” he said, which led to arguments with other boys such as his pious friend Simon Natroshvili.
Young Stalin - S. Sebag-Motefiore

Stalin only re-instituted the Orthodox church when the Nazis were at the gates of Moscow, because he understood the effect this would have on the morale of the common people. Up until then the Soviets routinely destroyed churches, synagogues and mosques. Thousands of clergy died or were sent to Siberia in the years between the civil war and WWII

It was noted in Party documents that this was not a change in policy regarding the Church and State Atheism, but a means to an end. After the war, the policies started to be reversed again and the atheist and anti-religious propaganda was increased again.

the party and Soviet power have not altered their principled attitude to religion and the church ... especially since the clergy has been making attempts to enhance church influence among the masses ... by preaching that the motherland and the church, Orthodoxy and patriotism are insepar- able ... that a nation is strong only as long as it keeps its faith.

The memorandum then explained that in conditions of war it was necessary to come to an accommodation with the church because of 'its political weight owing to its influence upon the masses ... still having tens of millions of faithful'. Party workers should therefore educate the believers 'in the true scientific world view', and draw them away from the church; but 'crude attacks on religion and the church are particularly intolerable as long as the war lasts ...'. Party workers should explain to the population that the exchanges of greetings between Stalin and the hierarchs occur not because the latter are church officials, but because they are Soviet citizens helping the war effort...

In short, instead of playing the role of a world religious leader, which if successful would have forced the Soviet authorities to treat the church with as much respect as Stalin did in 1943, it became merely a secondary tool of Soviet foreign policy; useful, but not so vital as to force the Soviet government to modify its internal policies towards the church. What
is more, the Cold War was now firmly established, and Stalin was practising increasing isolationism - foreign policy itself, and particularly its propaganda aspect, were becoming matters of secondary importance to him.

It was therefore no coincidence that 1948 saw the last opening of a new seminary (Saratov). Thereafter all pleas to open seminaries were rejected. Antireligious propaganda was considerably enhanced and before the end of 1949 a net decline in the number of operating churches set in. The ‘best years’ of Stalin's church policy (1942–1948) in the light of archival documents - Dimitry Pospielovsky

 

[pearl]

The point of excommunication is often misunderstood. Many people think that, when a person is excommunicated, he or she is "no longer a Catholic." But just as the Church can excommunicate someone only if he is a baptized Catholic, the excommunicated person remains a Catholic after his excommunication"

I think they are excommunicated from receiving the sacraments, not the Church, excommunication demands repentance and conversion.

 

[Shadow11]

I was wrong Biden is excommunicated

Excommunication, writes Fr. John Hardon, S.J., in his Modern Catholic Dictionary, is "An ecclesiastical censure by which one is more or less excluded from communion with the faithful."


In other words, excommunication is the way in which the Catholic Church expresses severe disapproval of an action taken by a baptized Catholic that is either gravely immoral or in some way calls into question or undermines publicly the truth of the Catholic Faith. Excommunication is the gravest penalty that the Church can impose on a baptized Catholic, but it is imposed out of love for both the person and the Church. The point of excommunication is to convince the person that his or her action was wrong, so that he or she may feel sorry for the action and be reconciled to the Church, and, in the case of actions that cause a public scandal, to make others aware that the person's action is not considered acceptable by the Catholic Church.

 

[anna.]

I was wrong Biden is excommunicated

Excommunication, writes Fr. John Hardon, S.J., in his Modern Catholic Dictionary, is "An ecclesiastical censure by which one is more or less excluded from communion with the faithful."


In other words, excommunication is the way in which the Catholic Church expresses severe disapproval of an action taken by a baptized Catholic that is either gravely immoral or in some way calls into question or undermines publicly the truth of the Catholic Faith. Excommunication is the gravest penalty that the Church can impose on a baptized Catholic, but it is imposed out of love for both the person and the Church. The point of excommunication is to convince the person that his or her action was wrong, so that he or she may feel sorry for the action and be reconciled to the Church, and, in the case of actions that cause a public scandal, to make others aware that the person's action is not considered acceptable by the Catholic Church.

No, he's not.

 

[Shadow11]

I was wrong Biden is excommunicated

Excommunication, writes Fr. John Hardon, S.J., in his Modern Catholic Dictionary, is "An ecclesiastical censure by which one is more or less excluded from communion with the faithful."


In other words, excommunication is the way in which the Catholic Church expresses severe disapproval of an action taken by a baptized Catholic that is either gravely immoral or in some way calls into question or undermines publicly the truth of the Catholic Faith. Excommunication is the gravest penalty that the Church can impose on a baptized Catholic, but it is imposed out of love for both the person and the Church. The point of excommunication is to convince the person that his or her action was wrong, so that he or she may feel sorry for the action and be reconciled to the Church, and, in the case of actions that cause a public scandal, to make others aware that the person's action is not considered acceptable by the Catholic Church.

I'll note they have failed to do this themselves as it comes with my heritage they should follow their own advise

 

[Shadow11]

No, he's not.

It says its just denial of communion he was denied

 

[anna.]

It says its just denial of communion he was denied

Excommunication is a process. Being denied communion by one priest isn't being excommunicated. He receives communion regularly at his own parish.

 

[Heyo]

Doesn't this suggest "Christianity is bad" in a different way: that it is easily manipulated by people with political ambitions, possibly due to its Messianic message?

It doesn't suggest that "Christianity is bad", only that "Christianity is not good" - at least not better than every other religion or none at all. So their claim for the moral high ground is debunked.

 

[PureX]

If Hitler had claimed he was a Christian, or a Catholic, what would that actually even mean? That all Christians and all Catholics are to blame for the way he behaved? Or that religious Christianity creates monsters? I think both of those assumptions is absurd.

 

[Muffled]

Take the atheist argument of since Hitler was raised a christian he stayed a christian. Does that hold any truth?

If that's true how many of you here are really atheists? I mean if you were raised a christian/in a religion, doesn't that mean you are still that?

I believe that is a RCC belief that is not valid in any other way than to say whatever connection the person had to Christianity cant be erased. It would seem less likely in the case of an infant who has no realization of that connection. In that case it is an irrational belief in magic.

I believe a person who has received Jesus as Lord and Savior has received so much that is good, he would never have any reason to return to a life with deadness of the spirit.

 

[Muffled]

This has been a question that’s been on my mind as of late. As I have not been praying to God or doing any spiritual practice for a couple months now. I’ll wonder if I die today, if that will effect my judgement? Do I need to die while being close to God? What if I die while I’ve strayed? Once a Christian, always a Christian? A good question :^]

I believe everything affects your judgment:. Every word, every thought and every action. And the scripture is clear. When you die God judges.

I believe it might do some good but the only sure thing is to receive Jesus as Lord and Savior.

I believe it depends on what you have strayed from and whether the temporal age is set to end.

 

[Muffled]

I was never a christian.
Never believed in any god / religion.
People raised as christians who say the became atheists, then returned...i dont
accept that they ever were atheists.
Teenage rebellion, then back to the old familiar is more likely.
A Viet ex catholic of my acquaintance is like an
ex - smoker, very against.

Of course in trying to generalize is what they
call " fraught".

I believe some ex JW's are like that. The JW's so soured them on religion that it is difficult to get them back into religious thinking again.

 

[1213]

Take the atheist argument of since Hitler was raised a christian he stayed a christian. Does that hold any truth?

If that's true how many of you here are really atheists? I mean if you were raised a christian/in a religion, doesn't that mean you are still that?

Nice question. In Biblical point of view Christian means a disciple of Jesus. And a disciple of Jesus is a person who remains in the teachings of Jesus. Difficult to see that Hitler would have done that.

...in Antioch that the disciples were first called Christians.
Acts 11:26

Jesus therefore said to those Jews who had believed him, "If you remain in my word, then you are truly my disciples. You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
John 8:31-32