Once a christian, always a christian

[We Never Know]

Weird hobby of yours: starting threads about straw man versions of atheist arguments.

Do you mean threads addressing strawmans.

Whats the difference?

 

[DNB]

Take the atheist argument of since Hitler was raised a christian he stayed a christian. Does that hold any truth?

If that's true how many of you here are really atheists? I mean if you were raised a christian/in a religion, doesn't that mean you are still that?

Whatever Hitler was raised as, he was definitely not a Christian by the time he created the 3rd Reich, and probably many years prior.
No one is a Christian from birth, or from lineage. Nor, does anyone remain a Christian by default, simply because they confessed themselves to be so at one point in their life.
Christians can lose their faith, and their salvation. God is looking for devout, convicted, ardent, and steadfast believers, not half-hearted, indifferent or complacent ones.

 

[We Never Know]

Hitler heaped praise on Martin Luther in Mein Kampf. He was inspired by Luther's religious writings and used them as his blueprint for treatment of the Jewish people.

Do you think that Martin Luther wasn't Christian, too?

Like you, we can only read what Hitler said and did. Unless you know some hidden things I don't know.

 

[Lain]

Not that I've ever heard. Technically that would make me a Christian, which would be kinda strange.

I've met "Christian atheists" before. There are stranger things down the rabbit hole.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Oh I see. Yeah Hitler weirdly enough praised Islam because he saw it more as a “warrior’s religion” more than Christianity.
And yeah, claiming Christianity is bad because Hitler was Christian is a clear Godwin. A logical fallacy that ironically is mocked by Atheists, normally.

Part of Hitler's 'charm' was that he'd regularly adjust his messaging depending on audience and need. There were limits (the guy was too egotistical to truly hide his nature) but you can easily find sets of apparently contradictory quotes from him. He was a politician, at the end of the day.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I've met "Christian atheists" before. There are stranger things down the rabbit hole.

Yep, although in truth that's a blended term. If they believe in God they aren't atheists, and if they don't, they're not Christians.

They appear to be atheists who see wisdom in some Biblical teachings and/or Christian traditions, but it's hard fitting that on a bumper sticker.

 

[We Never Know]

Weird hobby of yours: starting threads about straw man versions of atheist arguments.

Evidently it isn't clear whether Hitler was a christian or not. The posts in the thread show that.
Which is one reason I started the thread.
If you think its pointless, you are free to disengage and not post if you choose.

 

[We Never Know]

Hitler heaped praise on Martin Luther in Mein Kampf. He was inspired by Luther's religious writings and used them as his blueprint for treatment of the Jewish people.

Do you think that Martin Luther wasn't Christian, too?

Lets look at what Hitler said...

"Hitler and the Nazi party promoted "Positive Christianity",[13] a movement which rejected most traditional Christian doctrines such as the divinity of Jesus, as well as Jewish elements such as the Old Testament"

"Amid his political associates in Berlin, Hitler made harsh pronouncements against the church", yet "he conceived of the church as an instrument that could be useful to him"

"Hitler, wrote Speer, viewed Christianity as the wrong religion for the "Germanic temperament":[48] Speer wrote that Hitler would say: "You see, it's been our misfortune to have the wrong religion."

"Within the transcripts, Hitler speaks of Christianity as "absurdity" and "humbug" founded on "lies" with which he could "never come personally to terms."

Read more here....
Religious views of Adolf Hitler - Wikipedia.

 

[Warborg]

Say said killer claimed to be killing Jews because his Bible says the Jews killed Christ?

I may be naive but to the best of my knowledge there is only one true christian bible and it does not say to kill Jews in fact it says we are to respect them regardless of what they did. This may sound cold but Jesus did in fact have to die(to save us). I understand your main point of a person following their religion (even when it says do bad stuff)

I see your point, Warborg, but I know that Christians can do horrible things to people. Christians aren't immune from being evil, and doing evil things to other people. I can speak firsthand to that, so I don't agree with "No true Scotsman" argument, to be honest.

I agree 100%. I have also seen bad christians.

 

[blü 2]

Take the atheist argument of since Hitler was raised a christian he stayed a christian. Does that hold any truth?

First, this is not an 'atheist' observation, any more than 'the sky is blue' is an atheist observation.

Second, the question whether Hitler was a Christian depends how you define 'Christian'.

Hitler was a Christian in the sense of earlier being willing to identify himself as a Christian and later never publicly disavowing Christianity, having been raised in a culturally Christian environment. This is a very usual way to determine who's a Christian and how many Christians there are.

Hitler was likely not a Christian in the sense of regarding Jesus as his savior. However I can't recall ever seeing that question on a form that asks for one's religion eg census, hospital admission &c.

Before and during WW2, Hitler's Germany was preferred by the leaders of the Roman Catholic church to the 'threat' of communism, whose political forms were expressly atheist. Because he regarded Germany as anti-communist, Eugenio Pacelli, as Pius XII, never once publicly condemned Nazi atrocities against Jewish people, although it's known he was aware of them by (from memory) 1943. (As a result, the considerable amount of aid that RCC Christians rendered to Jews in the war was never part of an avowed RCC policy to that effect.)

If that's true how many of you here are really atheists? I mean if you were raised a christian/in a religion, doesn't that mean you are still that?

I was sent to a Pisco Sunday school and was even 'confirmed' as a Pisco.

But ─ relevantly to the two tests I mentioned above ─ for many years now I've identified as 'no religion' (and I'm an igtheist, not an atheist).

 

[Trailblazer]

Take the atheist argument of since Hitler was raised a christian he stayed a christian. Does that hold any truth?

If that's true how many of you here are really atheists? I mean if you were raised a christian/in a religion, doesn't that mean you are still that?

Once a Christian always a Christian does not hold true because most atheists I know were formerly Christians.
There are the exceptions, atheists who were raised atheists, but not many in America, mostly in Europe.

 

[Irate State]

If any speak up you will see. I myself see it as a failed arguement but some think it shows how religion is evil.

If you see it like a failed argument, then it works both ways regarding your question. It's a paper argument.

 

[F1fan]

It seems the question is about salvation, and Hitler was just an example.

I remember having debates with Christians who insist they have salvation regardless of what they do in life. They don't have to earn it, nor required to do works.

Other Christians disagreed, they insist their salvation is dependent on their morals, and that works is a path to heaven.

I always found the first argument problematic. And absurd. No surprise, but those Christians who advocated for that interpretation weren't exactly the most pleasant folks.

 

[Heyo]

Lets look at what Hitler said...

Let's look at what other Christians, especially those with authority, say.

Hitler was never excommunicated, an instrument that the RCC has at hand. If the Pope says Hitler was a Christian and a Catholic, who are we to argue?

In the Catholic doctrine there are sacraments which they take very serious. That's why it is so difficult for a serious Catholic to get a divorce. Marriage is a sacrament and sacraments are "for eternity". And like marriage, baptism is a sacrament, so once baptised as a Catholic, by dogma, you stay a Catholic.

I think that all that dogma is bovine manure but now you know where this "once a Christian, always a Christian" comes from.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Let's look at what other Christians, especially those with authority, say.

Hitler was never excommunicated, an instrument that the RCC has at hand. If the Pope says Hitler was a Christian and a Catholic, who are we to argue?

In the Catholic doctrine there are sacraments which they take very serious. That's why it is so difficult for a serious Catholic to get a divorce. Marriage is a sacrament and sacraments are "for eternity". And like marriage, baptism is a sacrament, so once baptised as a Catholic, by dogma, you stay a Catholic.

I think that all that dogma is bovine manure but now you know where this "once a Christian, always a Christian" comes from.

People are usually only formally excommunicated by the Vatican when they are in a position of teaching authority and teaching heresy, basically. It's a form of public censure. They usually don't bother doing that with political leaders or mundane laymen. The Vatican may have been concerned about the fallout for Catholics in Germany if they had formally excommunicated Hitler. So just because that didn't happen, doesn't mean the Vatican viewed Hitler as a Catholic in good standing, just I am sure they don't view me as such. We're viewed as automatically excommunicated by our falling away in belief or practice (in "grave sin" or apostates; many millions of Catholics fall into that category).

 

[RestlessSoul]

Hitler heaped praise on Martin Luther in Mein Kampf. He was inspired by Luther's religious writings and used them as his blueprint for treatment of the Jewish people.

Do you think that Martin Luther wasn't Christian, too?

Is the Pope a Lutheran?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Well, at Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus touched on that subject of fake Christians.

Even “performing powerful works” & “expelling demons” had no bearing, if they ‘worked iniquity.’

Obviously, Jesus wasn’t backing them. So, exactly how did they think they were “expelling demons”? Who’s power was/is behind that, I wonder?

 

[RestlessSoul]

Let's look at what other Christians, especially those with authority, say.

Hitler was never excommunicated, an instrument that the RCC has at hand. If the Pope says Hitler was a Christian and a Catholic, who are we to argue?

In the Catholic doctrine there are sacraments which they take very serious. That's why it is so difficult for a serious Catholic to get a divorce. Marriage is a sacrament and sacraments are "for eternity". And like marriage, baptism is a sacrament, so once baptised as a Catholic, by dogma, you stay a Catholic.

I think that all that dogma is bovine manure but now you know where this "once a Christian, always a Christian" comes from.

When did the pope say Hitler was a Catholic and a Christian?

And more importantly, since we're apparently looking at what those with authority have to say on the matter, which serious historian has ever claimed that Hitler was motivated by Christian values?

 

[Heyo]

We're viewed as automatically excommunicated by our falling away in belief or practice (in "grave sin" or apostates; many millions of Catholics fall into that category).

[citation needed]

 

[SomeRandom]

Part of Hitler's 'charm' was that he'd regularly adjust his messaging depending on audience and need. There were limits (the guy was too egotistical to truly hide his nature) but you can easily find sets of apparently contradictory quotes from him. He was a politician, at the end of the day.

Indeed. It’s like maybe he was a Christian, maybe he wasn’t. Having read one too many books on Hitler I think his beliefs sprung from Christianity in a lot of ways. Albeit his own twisted interpretations.
But that’s my laymen speculation