Abolition of Alcohol

[JustGeorge]

That also depends on the year, not only the school. We had some Grade 5s come back to school at noon somewhat drunk one year. One kid got into his Dad's cabinet, and they shared at least one bottle of wine. But although they all got in trouble, we mostly thought it was part of growing up. Curiousity is natural.

It is certainly natural. Kids will be kids...

 

[Vinayaka]

I don't mean anything complicated. But for example some basic ethical teachings to children about importance of honesty, kindness, etc. Bahais have such a education system for children currently in place. I mean , our personality is shaped when we are children, so, that's the time it is most effective.

Do the Baha'is teach the ethic of minding your own business, and freedom of choice for others?

 

[QuestioningMind]

It would be their choice, I see the OP said prohibition did not work, so what would it take?

Regards Tony

All you can do is educate people about possible dangers. But ultimately freedom of choice means that people are free to make bad choices.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I won't argue against that, but drugs have been with us for so very long that in one way or another we've been getting intoxicated at least since our earliest days.

So now we can consider what is required for change.

We have the science, we have a world of people that can get together and discuss these issues.

Regards Tony

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I am very happy not to be part of it at all. Please never incite me to such a conversation.

Ah - so when you said that you're "often" the designated driver, you meant that you're never the designated driver?

I consider it is rude to make the only person that does not drink to be the DD and then smash yourself to be a drooling zombie, all in the name of fun and entertainment and feel you are offering intelligent conversations.

Regards Tony

And I consider it to be rude to look down on other people the way you are, but I'm not out to make pompous self-righteousness illegal.

BTW: your cartoonish descriptions of social occasions where alcohol is served suggests to me that you've never actually been to a social occasion where alcohol is served.

 

[Secret Chief]

Tonight's tipple: Guinness 0.0 Stout.

 

[DNB]

I think taking some of the glory out of it would help. Not shaming, not brushing it under the rug, but being open about the benefits of being without it and highlighting more suitable alternative activities. Businesses could help by offering new venues for entertainment and nightlife that didn't revolve around being drunk. I think its especially bad for rural or lower populated areas, where there is almost nothing else to do in the evening other than gather at the bar with friends.

Yes, agreed, just for starters. ....and now that we're on this topic about vices, gambling is another plague that, as you stated, expressing such caveats and alternatives would be extremely helpful.

 

[DNB]

This tactic has been proven disastrous. Unless the alcohol prohibition has been there for centuries and its natural for people to find it difficult to access it. If you impose it upon a society that is not used to it, it will prove to be a disaster. Like it did in the prohibition era in the U.S.

Yes, so far most attempts have failed, and possibly increased the usage (forbitten fruit syndrome).
But, maybe there are some other methods that may prove to be more effective - has cigarette smoking decreased due to all the restrictions in the past 10 yrs??

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Either way, Tony, thanks for being there to drive, regardless.

That was most likely too passionate.

Those thoughts were all about a specific work party where I got volunteered, I accepted as long as it did not go past midnight, as I still had to work 6am again the next morning.

By 10pm all but about 10 people remained, and as alcohol was provided they all had way too much and the conversation was very loud and utter nonsense. As it approached midnight I tried to get all on the bus, but I only got a couple home, at 1am to 2am I said if you do not come now, you will have to walk home, they did not come.

So I got in trouble from work because I left them there, even though I started work 4 hours later after little sleep.

They enjoyed themselves though and that is what I see alcohol is all about, feeding the self, why else would you not give it up for the good of all?

Regards Tony

 

[JustGeorge]

Yes, agreed, just for starters. ....and now that we're on this topic about vices, gambling is another plague that, as you stated, expressing such caveats and alternatives would be extremely help.

I admit, I understand why someone might drink. Gambling... that's beyond me.

Actually, I went to a casino once. My husband and I each had 20 bucks to spend. I put a couple coins in machines. Lost them. It felt dumb. I went to the casino bar and got a drink and a snack... Might as well have something to enjoy for my money...

Vices aside, what do you think would be good alternatives that would be readily utilized?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Do the Baha'is teach the ethic of minding your own business, and freedom of choice for others?

Actually that's one of the things Bahai writings teach!

 

[CG Didymus]

If someone wants to make wine at home for themselves, it is their own business.

Hmmm? Not if it's banned. Just like a person can use drugs but not sell them, but it's still against the law. Even with wine, where are they going to get the right grapes and the fermenting equipment?

Drugs and pornography are two other things that needs to be banned.

Okay, alcohol, drugs and porn... you say they need to be banned. Will people stop drinking, and taking drugs and watching porn? But all of them are kind of related. Baha'is believe in educating people why these things are bad. So let's say it's a group of high school kids. You tell them that drinking will kill brains cells and make you do things you shouldn't do. Okay, but some of those things they shouldn't do by Baha'i standards are the very things they want to do, and a few drinks is going to help them. You tell them not to do drugs. Same thing, they enjoy getting stoned. They don't care if it's harmful. Then porn? Yeah, tell them not to look at naked people having sex. But, instead, wait until you find the right person and then get married... then have sex with yourselves... and only with yourselves... and never think about having sex with other people. Unfortunately, kids use alcohol and drugs to help them find someone who will have sex with them. So you can say they are banned all you want. But you won't get people to stop doing those things... And that includes religious people too... but it will be in secret.

 

[JustGeorge]

That was most likely too passionate.

Those thoughts were all about a specific work party where I got volunteered, I accepted as long as it did not go past midnight, as I still had to work 6am again the next morning.

By 10pm all but about 10 people remained, and as alcohol was provided they all had way too much and the conversation was very loud and utter nonsense. As it approached midnight I tried to get all on the bus, but I only got a couple home, at 1am to 2am I said if you do not come now, you will have to walk home, they did not come.

So I got in trouble from work because I left them there, even though I started work 4 hours later after little sleep.

They enjoyed themselves though and that is what I see alcohol is all about, feeding the self, why else would you not give it up for the good of all?

Regards Tony

That sounds like a real crappy experience. Sorry you went through that.

I would like to offer an alternative view, though. While in the situation you describe sounds like people wanting to feel good, not all do it for that reason.

I was a heavy drinker for a time in my 20s. I was scared ****-less of the person I lived with. It helped me deal with the fear. And as I've said before, I didn't really do anything because I was drunk... I still behaved the same. For me, it wasn't about feeling good, it was about feeling normal(not scared).

I know others who drank to fit in... to be the sober Joe in the corner would have lost them friends. They didn't necessarily want to get smashed, but they felt their social lives depended on it. And I get that. To an extent, its true for certain areas. I don't bar hop, and I can't say that's helped me make friends... at all.

I'm not saying getting drunk is the answer, I just wanted to give you some other reasons people turn to it.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Well, the banning of pot didn't work either. Now it is becoming more and more legal. So why would a non-religious government ban alcohol? Probably a high percentage of them drink. We even has one Supreme Court justice that said he likes beer. But how will the Baha'i Faith ever enforce such a law? And if it doesn't, then why would someone who does drink in moderation give it up? But, will they admit they drink to their Baha'i community? And if they don't, then all the law is accomplishing is to cause people to drink in secret.

Hi CG. Why does any person change? I guess they will have to be hit hard with the consequences of what alcohol is costing our humanity.

I do not see this has anything to do with the Baha'i Administrative Order. I appreciate the Baha'i Faith has a law on this and it is my choice to follow it.

This is my strong view on Alcohol, as I am in a small community where the downfalls are a daily observation.

All I really have got from this OP is that no one really cares, as long as they still can partake of it.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

Actually that's one of the things Bahai writings teach!

And you don't realise you're not following that teaching?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

All you can do is educate people about possible dangers. But ultimately freedom of choice means that people are free to make bad choices.

Agreed, but an effort must be made to start with and that is what this OP is about.

It is encouraging that a good percentage of people have offered what I too see is the solution and that is education.

I have said to another though, I wonder how far society would allow that education to go. The education would have to be aimed at imparting the thought that it should not be partaken of.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That sounds like a real crappy experience. Sorry you went through that.

I would like to offer an alternative view, though. While in the situation you describe sounds like people wanting to feel good, not all do it for that reason.

I was a heavy drinker for a time in my 20s. I was scared ****-less of the person I lived with. It helped me deal with the fear. And as I've said before, I didn't really do anything because I was drunk... I still behaved the same. For me, it wasn't about feeling good, it was about feeling normal(not scared).

I know others who drank to fit in... to be the sober Joe in the corner would have lost them friends. They didn't necessarily want to get smashed, but they felt their social lives depended on it. And I get that. To an extent, its true for certain areas. I don't bar hop, and I can't say that's helped me make friends... at all.

I'm not saying getting drunk is the answer, I just wanted to give you some other reasons people turn to it.

Thank you for the reply. I have had these experiences with family.

I understand why people turn to alcohol and drugs for the many reasons.

I just think that we have to know there are better ways of finding help and entertainment.

Regards Tony

 

[DNB]

I admit, I understand why someone might drink. Gambling... that's beyond me.

Actually, I went to a casino once. My husband and I each had 20 bucks to spend. I put a couple coins in machines. Lost them. It felt dumb. I went to the casino bar and got a drink and a snack... Might as well have something to enjoy for my money...

Vices aside, what do you think would be good alternatives that would be readily utilized?

Well, in my opinion, the anti-cigarette campaigns have been affective - the warnings on the packages themselves, the lack of accessibility, the awareness of 2nd hand smoke, etc.. I haven't checked the numbers if the actual smokers have decreased. But, at a minimum, the non-smokers have it much better now, they can be in public areas without the imposition of cigarette smoke within their environment an atmosphere.
Gambling advertisements also has taken on warnings to deter people from going beyond their limits, and to do so responsibly keeping fun in mind (not stress or avarice)

In general, I think just what you suggested is the way to start. Bring awareness as to the ramifications, first of all. And then, offer alcohol-free dance clubs, bingo nights, sports events, concerts, etc...

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Do the Baha'is teach the ethic of minding your own business, and freedom of choice for others?

This OP takes no one's freedom of choice away.

It is asking the question, since prohibition has not worked, what will it take for us to abolish Alcohol, can it happen?

The OP has made it obvious that if it can it will not be anytime soon.

@InvestigateTruth offered Education and many support that approach.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And you don't realise you're not following that teaching?

Why offer that Judgement?

Regards Tony