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If God existed how could it be proven?

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
God does not physically exist. God is Spirit
IOW, God does not exist.

But that does not mean that "spiritual" or "supernatural." do not exist.
It means that anything labelled "supernatural" falls into one of two categories:

- things that exist (physically) that we don't have good evidence for, or
- things that don't exist.

"Supernatural" and "spiritual" are not actually types of existence.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
It would be one explanation but have you ever heard of UFOs?

So you simply evaluate

1 the probability that Aliens with such technology exists + the probability that aliens would be willing to full humans in such a way

Vs

2 the probability that God exists + the probability that God would manifest to humans in such a way

I would argue that 2 is more probable.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
No, that's the claimed difference.
Claims can either be true or false.
If that (people claiming stuff) counts as "manifestations", then all of the following should be considered to exist:
- alien abductions
- bigfoot
- sasquatch
- poltergeists
- dragons
Did any of these establish religions and civilizations?
Sorry, but what you are calling "messengers", are in reality just people who make claims.
Some false messengers only make claims but the true Messengers establish religions and civilizations.

“The greatest bestowal of God in the world of humanity is religion; for assuredly the divine teachings of religion are above all other sources of instruction and development to man. Religion confers upon man eternal life and guides his footsteps in the world of morality. It opens the doors of unending happiness and bestows everlasting honor upon the human kingdom. It has been the basis of all civilization and progress in the history of mankind.......

But when we speak of religion we mean the essential foundation or reality of religion, not the dogmas and blind imitations which have gradually encrusted it and which are the cause of the decline and effacement of a nation. These are inevitably destructive and a menace and hindrance to a nation’s life,—even as it is recorded in the Torah and confirmed in history that when the Jews became fettered by empty forms and imitations the wrath of God became manifest.......

What then is the mission of the divine prophets? Their mission is the education and advancement of the world of humanity. They are the real teachers and educators, the universal instructors of mankind. If we wish to discover whether any one of these great souls or messengers was in reality a prophet of God we must investigate the facts surrounding His life and history; and the first point of our investigation will be the education He bestowed upon mankind. If He has been an educator, if He has really trained a nation or people, causing it to rise from the lowest depths of ignorance to the highest station of knowledge, then we are sure that He was a prophet. This is a plain and clear method of procedure, proof that is irrefutable. We do not need to seek after other proofs.” Bahá’í World Faith, pp. 270, 272, 273

RELIGION AND CIVILIZATION
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
2 the probability that God exists + the probability that God would manifest to humans in such a way

I would argue that 2 is more probable.
Absolute Proof is a very “strong word” …. But if you look at the cosmos with a telescope and you see a dust cloud organized such that they say “hey you guys from “religious forums” , I am God and I exist. That would be enough to convince any reasonable person.
#142 leroy, Yesterday at 9:39 AM

Has God ever done that before? If not, why would God do that now?
Who here would be convinced by that? I wouldn't be.
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
IOW, God does not exist.
Not as a physical entity.
It means that anything labelled "supernatural" falls into one of two categories:

- things that exist (physically) that we don't have good evidence for, or
- things that don't exist.

"Supernatural" and "spiritual" are not actually types of existence.
They are part of reality of they exist.

Reality:

1. the world or the state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them.
2. the state or quality of having existence or substance.

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=reality+means

Real : actually existing as a thing or occurring in fact; not imagined or supposed.

Spiritual : relating to or affecting the human spirit or soul as opposed to material or physical things.

The issue at hand here is that atheists believe that only material or physical things are real and that spiritual things are imaginary, but that is just their personal opinion, because there is no reason to think that things affecting the human spirit or soul are not real, and if they have an effect they have to be real, even if we cannot see them and prove they exist.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
We have multiple independent historical documents confirming this event, …..
Do we have historical documents confirming that Jesus rise from the dead?
What we we have besides the Bible? The Bible is not a historical document.
Stories that men wrote are not proof that anything in the story ever happened.
Anyone can write a story that sounds true.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
How could anyone ever prove that? Think about it.
you tell me. You claim it is evidence that your girl with an impossible name met God.
So, show it to me. I don't want the whole thing, just what you consider as the most obvious piece of evidence that she really met God.

why are you so shy? Show it to me, please.

Ciao

- viole
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
So would this logic apply to how God have design how things are to be done here on Earth as well? Shouldn't we assume that God being all-knowing also have made things the best way possible, of all the available options? And if that is the case, why are humans then complaining, we should happy when only 99 people die and that God made sure that it weren't 100.

This logic doesn't work in my opinion. For exactly the same reason as we have talked about before, when it comes to animal suffering, God must have created it the best possible way, so people should stop worrying or complaining about it, because it is the absolute best it can ever be.

It's like a person that have gotten the absolutely best ice cream in the world, ever possible, it simply can't be any better and they know it. Yet they still complain about it. It makes no sense, when ice cream can't be any better than it already is, EVER!! :)
That is simple to explain. What humans think is best for them is not always what God thinks is best but if God is all-knowing God knows more than we do about what is best for us, since no human is all-knowing.
Also, if God created humans (I mean allowed them to evolve) wouldn't God know what is best for humans?

There is is no reason to believe that everyone should be happy all the time, and that is not possible as long as we are living in a material world, which is the primary source of unhappiness. If everyone was happy here then they would never long for something better, that which is in heaven.
Im sorry, but again this logic doesn't work. If God cared about us believing, he wouldn't allow different religions to have fought each other. Because clearly only one of them can be right.
That is simple to explain. God allows free will and people choose to cling to their religions and as long as that is the case there will be conflict. More than one religion contains truth, but only one religion has the latest truth, and only one religion can bring all the older religions together because only one religion has that as its goal. That religion is the Baha'i Faith.
I just don't buy it, there is no evidence for this being the case, morality existed long before the major religions, if it didn't we wouldn't have gotten to a stage where they would even have been possible to develop, we would have killed each other way before that could ever have happened.
Baha'is believe that religion has always existed because God has always sent Prophets and Messengers, ever since humans evolved as humans.

“And now regarding thy question, “How is it that no records are to be found concerning the Prophets that have preceded Adam, the Father of Mankind, or of the kings that lived in the days of those Prophets?” Know thou that the absence of any reference to them is no proof that they did not actually exist. That no records concerning them are now available, should be attributed to their extreme remoteness, as well as to the vast changes which the earth hath undergone since their time.

Moreover such forms and modes of writing as are now current amongst men were unknown to the generations that were before Adam. There was even a time when men were wholly ignorant of the art of writing, and had adopted a system entirely different from the one which they now use. For a proper exposition of this an elaborate explanation would be required.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 172-173
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
What we we have besides the Bible?

Why besides the bible? Why are you expressing yourself as if the bible where intrinsically unreliable?



The Bible is not a historical document
Why not? Please define “historical document” and explain why isn’t the bible (gosples acts and paul) a historical document



.
Stories that men wrote are not proof that anything


So by that logic, we should reject all history, because all we have are books and documents written by men

Honestly, what else did you expect?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
you tell me. You claim it is evidence that your girl with an impossible name met God.
It is evidence but it is not proof although it is proof to be because I have proven it to myself by looking at ALL the other evidence.
So, show it to me. I don't want the whole thing, just what you consider as the most obvious piece of evidence that she really met God.

why are you so shy? Show it to me, please.
I also showed you what I consider the most obvious evidence: The Works of Bahá'u'lláh

I never said that Baha'u'llah "met God." Nobody has ever seen God
I said that God communicated to Him but it was in a way no ordinary human can ever understand because we do not have the capacity to receive communication from God. Only Messengers if God have tat capacity becaue thye have a twofold nature, physical and spiritual.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
It is evidence but it is not proof although it is proof to be because I have proven it to myself by looking at ALL the other evidence.

I also showed you what I consider the most obvious evidence: The Works of Bahá'u'lláh

I never said that Baha'u'llah "met God." Nobody has ever seen God
I said that God communicated to Him but it was in a way no ordinary human can ever understand because we do not have the capacity to receive communication from God. Only Messengers if God have tat capacity becaue thye have a twofold nature, physical and spiritual.
Well, yes, that is what those middle men say.I would say the same if I were applying for a job as prophet. How else would they sell their made up stuff, otherwise? Or do you have some a-priori evidence that they have, indeed a physical and spiritual nature? I wonder how you can provide that without begging the question.

Whatever. Can you pick up one from the list of evidences so that we can submit it to rational analysis?

Ciao

- viole
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Why besides the bible? Why are you expressing yourself as if the bible where intrinsically unreliable?
The resurrection stories are not reliable evidence of a resurrection
Why not? Please define “historical document” and explain why isn’t the bible (gosples acts and paul) a historical document
A historical document would be a document written by historians who were unbiased, not a document that was written by religious believers who are biased.
So by that logic, we should reject all history, because all we have are books and documents written by men

Honestly, what else did you expect?
Not all history, but the Bible is not verifiable history.
I expect verifiable history if I am going to believe a man rose from the dead after three days, not that it matters if Jesus rose from the dead or not, because that was not what He came to earth to do. Jesus came to bear witness to the truth about God:

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

When Jesus said "it is finished" that is what He meant - finished.

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

And then decades later men wrote stories about Him rising from the dead and created an entire theology around that, making the resurrection more important than the crucifixion or the teachings of Jesus. I consider this one of the worst hoaxes ever perpetrated in an unsuspecting humanity.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Well, yes, that is what those middle men say.I would say the same if I were applying for a job as prophet. How else would they sell their made up stuff, otherwise?
Baha'u'llah was not trying to "sell" anything and He did not care if anyone believed Him, as all He did was for the sake of God. I believe Him because it makes sense. Why would He suffer unimaginable hardship, imprisonment, exile and banishment from place to place for 40 years when He was born into wealth and could have instead been a high official in the Persian government? That is part of the evidence but not all of it.

“Who can ever believe that this Servant of God hath at any time cherished in His heart a desire for any earthly honor or benefit? The Cause associated with His Name is far above the transitory things of this world. Behold Him, an exile, a victim of tyranny, in this Most Great Prison. His enemies have assailed Him on every side, and will continue to do so till the end of His life. Whatever, therefore, He saith unto you is wholly for the sake of God, that haply the peoples of the earth may cleanse their hearts from the stain of evil desire, may rend its veil asunder, and attain unto the knowledge of the one true God—the most exalted station to which any man can aspire. Their belief or disbelief in My Cause can neither profit nor harm Me. We summon them wholly for the sake of God. He, verily, can afford to dispense with all creatures.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 85
Or do you have some a-priori evidence that they have, indeed a physical and spiritual nature? I wonder how you can provide that without begging the question.
I am not begging the question because I am not making an argument. I just have a religious belief, and religious beliefs cannot be proven with arguments.
Whatever. Can you pick up one from the list of evidences so that we can submit it to rational analysis?
The fact that Baha'u'llah predicted many events that later came to pass proves to me that He could see into the future, so He had prophetic powers. A list of 30 of these predictions and how they came to pass are delineated in this book: The Challenge of Baha'u'llah
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Baha'u'llah was not trying to "sell" anything and He did not care if anyone believed Him, as all He did was for the sake of God. I believe Him because it makes sense. Why would He suffer unimaginable hardship, imprisonment, exile and banishment from place to place for 40 years when He was born into wealth and could have instead been a high official in the Persian government? That is part of the evidence but not all of it.

“Who can ever believe that this Servant of God hath at any time cherished in His heart a desire for any earthly honor or benefit? The Cause associated with His Name is far above the transitory things of this world. Behold Him, an exile, a victim of tyranny, in this Most Great Prison. His enemies have assailed Him on every side, and will continue to do so till the end of His life. Whatever, therefore, He saith unto you is wholly for the sake of God, that haply the peoples of the earth may cleanse their hearts from the stain of evil desire, may rend its veil asunder, and attain unto the knowledge of the one true God—the most exalted station to which any man can aspire. Their belief or disbelief in My Cause can neither profit nor harm Me. We summon them wholly for the sake of God. He, verily, can afford to dispense with all creatures.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 85

I am not begging the question because I am not making an argument. I just have a religious belief, and religious beliefs cannot be proven with arguments.

The fact that Baha'u'llah predicted many events that later came to pass proves to me that He could see into the future, so He had prophetic powers. A list of 30 of these predictions and how they came to pass are delineated in this book: The Challenge of Baha'u'llah
Well, then show to me how those prophets had a spiritual component, as you claimed. I hope you are not telling me that they had a spiritual mind so that they could meet God, and them meeting god is evidence they had a spiritual mind.

And what is that nonsense you posted from that girl with an impossible name? You are like those Christians who vomit Bible verses at me, when they run out of ammunition. Which happens usually after two posts, or so.

Again, can you single one out, that clearly shows evidence of her having had am inspiration from God? Should be easy to find out.

Ciao

- viole
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Well, then show to me how those prophets had a spiritual component, as you claimed. I hope you are not telling me that they had a spiritual mind so that they could meet God, and them meeting god is evidence they had a spiritual mind.
I told you that nobody ever meets God. Their souls get spiritual powers in the spiritual world, before they are born into this world, as that is how that can understand God.
And what is that nonsense you posted from that girl with an impossible name? You are like those Christians who vomit Bible verses at me, when they run out of ammunition. Which happens usually after two posts, or so.
That shows what Baha'u'llah, who was a man and not a girl, said about not being interested in selling anything.
It is always best to get a direct quote, written in His own pen, rather than me paraphrasing what He wrote.
Again, can you single one out, that clearly shows evidence of her having had am inspiration from God? Should be easy to find out.
There is no such evidence, as I said before. It is a faith-based belief.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
God only reveals what humanity is ready for, what they are able to understand and what they need.
Usual question... What exactly did he reveal with Jesus? What exactly were the people in that day able to understand? 'Cause according to what you tell me, the early Christians got most all of it wrong?
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
I told you that nobody ever meets God. Their souls get spiritual powers in the spiritual world, before they are born into this world, as that is how that can understand God
And how does it work? Do you know that they understood God because of their spiritual powers, or they had spiritual powers because they understood God? Again, I am not sure how you cam solve that without begging the question.

That shows what Baha'u'llah, who was a man and not a girl, said about not being interested in selling anything.
It is always best to get a direct quote, written in His own pen, rather than me paraphrasing what He wrote.
Oh, sorry. I thought it was a girl. Sounded like a girl's name to me.

There is no such evidence, as I said before. It is a faith-based belief.
Of course. Like all the others. You need to have faith that they did not make everything up. What else have you got?

Ciao

- viole
 
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