A Person Believes in Science by Faith if...

[Trailblazer]

Just a few posts ago you said you have evidence and now you say that 'No, the Baha'i Faith does not have a standard set of evidence it provides to justify belief,'. That is very funny.

There is no 'standard set' of evidence that everyone uses because everyone comes to believe for their own reasons.

 

[KerimF]

So mature just means adult. Thanks for that clarification.

Based on comments here and elsewhere you seem to indicate a disbelief in HIV/AIDS and men having landed on the moon. Not everything is a lie or massive conspiracy. I'm not sure how to get you back to just a healthy level of skepticism.

And I have no intention to present here all what I know and their related scientific proofs.
After all, I would be a naive person if I do it since I know in advance that nothing can let an adult believer change his belief (unless he is promised to gain big money and/or a better sex ) And in our case here, there is neither money nor sex to be offered

By the way, every time I see people hiding most of their face by a mask now, I recall those who oppose aggressively a girl/woman just because she likes covering her head hairs.

For instance, Jesus gave me a simple, though very effective, hint to discover, when necessary, any important hidden truth:

"You will know them by their fruits",

Here is an example, but please fasten your seat belt first

Which was one of the fruits of the horrible 9-11 attacks?
Please correct me if you see it wrong.

In less than 24 hours, the greatest world's bogeyman 'Communism' was replaced with a new one 'Terror of Islam'.
This let me know that, at last, the American Elite knew how to convince their Russian counterparts to work together in controlling the world (as it was done before WW2 with the German Elite, but this is another topic). Now, you know why the WH stories about the 'jealous insane attackers' who planned and executed the terrible crimes on that day were accepted all as true by all remaining systems, religious and political, in the world (In fact, one part of the world follows the American system and the other part follows the Russian system).

By the way, this was just one fruit of many ones that the multitudes are not supposed to hear (so fortunately there are just a few readers around here).

 

[KerimF]

It is getting more complicated these days. Take SARS-CoV-2 crisis for example. The former President of the United States and other Republicans claim it was leaked from a Chinese lab. China retorts that it originated in the United States. Some news organizations parrot their governments party line. I think on some topics it is getting harder and harder for the average Joe to get news that isn't inflated or hyped in some way.
Not everyone has the background or time to keep up with all the different scientific journals.

Well, all ruling system are simply playing, before their people (and the world), their different given roles. Fortunately many politicians proved being great actors, even greater than the greatest ones at Hollywood.
So what could be the fruit of their great play?
Well, one just needs to look what is happening to the people in every country, without exception.
There is no more the conventional middle class, just low and high ones. Do you know what this means?
Well, it is simply the necessary preparation before launching a new world war. In this war, the victims are supposed to be among the ordinary people only in every country (civilians, mercenaries, militants and troops). So it will be likely called the cleaning world's war. And it will not be stopped till the toll of deaths be not less than a few billions. But this coming war needs the application of very intelligent tactics so that all high classes around the world will be protected while they are surrounded by the misery of their people, their victims.
I guess this is a good scenario for a great movie

 

[KerimF]

Since you are Christian, you are relying on the Bible to based your faith in your belief.

Sorry I am not Christian; it seems my OP here is the first one of mine you had the chance to read.
As you know, a Christian (as known globally) believes in Jesus by faith.
But it happened that I knew Jesus by reason, not faith. How?!... It happened that whatever I discovered, when I was a young adult, in my deep nature and the real world was already known by Jesus even before 2000 years. Naturally, I saw in Him the divine perfect teacher who came to save me from ignorance (the common serious weakness with which every human baby is born). Indeed, thanks to his various sayings and hints I was able, with time, to find out the logical answers too of all crucial/important questions which I was looking for. In other words, He is my Light of Knowledge.

At least now, you get why I present myself as a student of Jesus instead of Christian.

 

[Polymath257]

Thank you for raising this point.
Well, the missing part in the story is that, at the time of Apollo missions, no ruling system in the world dared opposing directly the new greatest power. This powerful system was able to get rid, very cleverly, of three world's powers in the 20th century. The first one was the Ottoman Empire which was made out of the power’s game by using the British and French hands. Then, it was the turn of Britain and France to be out by using the German hands (besides some other European ones). Please note, I don’t expect you to believe anything I said here for two reasons: it is safer for you not to know any truth which is supposed to be hidden from the multitudes and believing a hidden truth or not won’t change anything in the world other than talking more about it

But they *did* directly oppose the USA on numerous occasions. That is what simply doesn't work in your conspiracy theory. The Soviets were quite happy to point out flaws and inconsistencies in the US system (and vice versa). At the time of the moon landings, the Soviets were very much involved in the space race and had even been ahead of the US until quite recently. So to say they would have been afraid to point out that the signals didn't come from the moon, which was easily verified by anyone with a modicum of technology, is just strange.

I'm not sure why you think your view is the 'truth'. Maybe it is comfortable for you to believe it for some reason.

But the US did go to the moon. Nobody has been back for half a century. Even our enemies don't dispute that.

 

[KerimF]

Whereas if I "trust [my] own observations and experiences and logical reasoning" as you suggest, then the world would still be flat and the sun moon stars and etceteras would still go round it ─ just as the bible says.

You are right if we ignore that the human brain evolves with time, by design, mainly its parts that are related to what we call 'logical reasoning'. But we like or not... it evolves. One just needs observing how the today's kids are able to understand sometimes new ideas more than old men, as I am, do

Did I see the atomic space by which all matters in our universe are formed? Of course, I didn't.
So why did I accept its idea and add it to my set of knowledge?
My first reason was I like it because it somehow replicates the image of our universe which I perceive now (not the flat earth ). Then more reasons came later.
So now I can go further in exploring the atomic space too. For example, its various tiny particles could be also seen as being formed with certain matters which in turn is formed by a lower level of atomic space. So if we refer to our universe space as of level 0, the atomic space forming our matter would be of level -1 and the lower one of level -2 and so on to level -3, -4, -5 ...

For instance, could you imagine the space of level +1 ?

 

[KerimF]

I can't think of a science subject that would be based on faith. Usually, scientific subjects have been confirmed by multiple sources so it's no longer faith in the process, but facts (or theory) once what they study they determine is true.

In general, you are totally right. But I was referring to what people may hear on many international news/media or read on articles something like: Scientists say or... Scientists found out that... " while addressing almost the entire world and repeating it almost daily.

I am afraid the list is rather long when the name of science and scientists was used to fool the ordinary people around the world; for example by presenting certain artificial happenings as being normal.

Blind faith isn't a bad thing. Sometimes we have to trust without confirmation and study. It's a leap of faith. I think by definition faith is blind. You're taking a chance over doing or saying something that you don't know the benefits or consequences of and no confirmation that it would be likely to be a result in either way.

Yes, we like it or not, having faith is always the first step to have knowledge.
The best example is having faith in the unlimited power of our brain
Without it, one finds himself, sooner or later, following some others who think for him

We do have unique ways to perceive things to ourselves (referring to reality?). Is this what you mean by faith-the blind person needs to put faith in what you say is true?

We make our own personal perception of reality?

I meant, one has no choice but to perceive reality while being limited by the nature of which he is made.
This leads us to the notion of 'one's reality' which is a subset of the absolute reality (somehow like Relativity in Physics when the same thing, time or space, could be perceived, in certain conditions, differently by two observers).

 

[Polymath257]

You are right if we ignore that the human brain evolves with time, by design, mainly its parts that are related to what we call 'logical reasoning'. But we like or not... it evolves. One just needs observing how the today's kids are able to understand sometimes new ideas more than old men, as I am, do

That isn't evolution. No genetic changes are involved, only social changes.

Did I see the atomic space by which all matters in our universe are formed? Of course, I didn't.

I'm not sure what you are even talking about here. Atomic space??

So why did I accept its idea and add it to my set of knowledge?
My first reason was I like it because it somehow replicates the image of our universe which I perceive now (not the flat earth ). Then more reasons came later.
So now I can go further in exploring the atomic space too. For example, its various tiny particles could be also seen as being formed with certain matters which in turn is formed by a lower level of atomic space. So if we refer to our universe space as of level 0, the atomic space forming our matter would be of level -1 and the lower one of level -2 and so on to level -3, -4, -5 ...

For instance, could you imagine the space of level +1 ?

I can make no sense of any of this. Could you give more detail? What is 'atomic space'? Why would it be at level -1?

 

[Polymath257]

I am afraid the list is rather long when the name of science and scientists was used to fool the ordinary people around the world; for example by presenting certain artificial happenings as being normal

Give one example.

 

[KerimF]

The first definition is wishful thinking. The second definition is closer to the faith I mean.

Evidence of science is all around us. We can deduce from experience that the particular method works wonders in reality. Knowing this I put my faith or trust in science to the degree it is knowable for me.

I know I took the vaccine for covid-19 based on the fact that my nurse also was vaccinated. So I was trusting that she knew enough about it.

There was a plan to get samples of blood from as many people in the world as possible. Now, I confess that making the conventional flu (which, since always, hits billions of humans every year) to look as pandemic (threatening the existence of the human race) was indeed a genius idea to achieve this somehow impossible goal.

And as an extra bonus for those behind the worldwide propaganda of COVID-19 is that it becomes rather easy to get rid of any VIP who is no more desirable by the world's Elite by using advanced bio-poisons who were made to give the symptoms of flu (though in a much harder way) before killing its victim.

But the worst of all this is what is planned for the future.
After collecting billions of blood samples, various selective bio-poisons could be made. And when one of them is spread in a populated region, only its selected targets die.

By the way, I suggest converting this scenario to a science-fiction movie

 

[Polymath257]

I learned a lot from my teachers and advisors in settings far from the classroom.

Sometimes setting around a table with pizza and beer, you learn a lot.

If the only things you learn (even academically) in college are in the classroom, you have missed 80% of the college experience.

 

[blü 2]

So now I can go further in exploring the atomic space too. For example, its various tiny particles could be also seen as being formed with certain matters which in turn is formed by a lower level of atomic space. So if we refer to our universe space as of level 0, the atomic space forming our matter would be of level -1 and the lower one of level -2 and so on to level -3, -4, -5 ...

For instance, could you imagine the space of level +1 ?

We presently think there's a "smallest" that things can be before they cease to have meaning as physical objects, the Planck length, a miserly 1.616×10^-35 meters or so. By contrast, a quark is a bloated 0.4x10^-16 meters or so. But if you go back into the history of science fiction, you'll find tales in the '40s or '50s where humans manage to shrink themselves and ─ get this ─ their atomic and subatomic bits in proportion, and visit earth-like worlds which you and I would ignorantly think were electrons.

So it's all out there, waiting for pioneers like yourself.

 

[KerimF]

That's not my definition of love. Love doesn't need to be mutual to be love. And though trust is generally present, one can love a child, for example, that is known to be untrustworthy.

Love is the psychological state of seeing the other as part of the self, and wanting to devote resources to the betterment of the other as one would oneself. It manifests in behavior that can be seen to be intended to benefit the object of love. Notice that this isn't an emotion.

If I understood you well a master can love his slave. But if this is the case, the slave would be for the master as a pet which the master also takes care of.

I mean for true love to exit between two, each of them has to be a free independent being. And their mutual trust lets them have one will towards any outsider as if they were just one person.

Therefore, an animal, for example, cannot live true love because it is pre-programmed to follow always its instincts which may include all sorts of love but the true one.
The same applies on humans when loving another is guided by one's instincts; as a father loves his little kid. But when this kid becomes an adult and as free and independent as his father, only then they can live true love and have one will towards all others.

 

[KerimF]

Scientists are willing to change their minds when proven wrong. Theists won't. Evolution, Global Warming, and a host of other issues are disbelieved. None are so blind as those who will not see.

Belief in science is based on rigorous testing (and even that might be wrong in extreme cases). Newton defined how gravity and velocity work. Einstein said that changes in powerful gravitation fields (general relativity) and at high speeds (special relativity). Schroedinger showed that the tiny world depends on probabilities (quantum mechanics).

Science is a continual march to greater understanding, and does not assert that anything has been proven (just theorized and thoroughly tested).

Science made the vaccine for COVID. Without that, many would die. The Vatican closed its doors (sensibly) to prevent the spread of COVID, and it is clear that they didn't trust God to protect them. Science allows more crops to be grown to feed our ever-expanding population. Science fixes life in many ways (including the internet that we use to communicate and learn).

Science is not the enemy of religion. Theists should strive to understand science, and figure out how it assists the Lord's work.

All you said about science is great and I agree with you on it.

I was focusing on the human receiver who may hear an idea, said proven scientifically, and finds himself accepting it blindly because he doesn't have the proper means to verify it personally. In such a case, I wonder how we could see a difference between his belief in this idea (said proven by some scientists/doctors though it could be fake to serve certain economical/political goal for example) and of a religious believer who used accepting ideas blindly.

 

[Aupmanyav]

There is no 'standard set' of evidence that everyone uses because everyone comes to believe for their own reasons.

I understand your standard. It is "Bahaollah said so." Other than that you do not need any evidence. It is an abnormal standard of evidence. It is known as 'Circular Reasoning'. Common-sense shreds it. Remember Sally?

 

[YoursTrue]

I wish you are right. But, let us be realistic. Whenever someone believes/trusts another person blindly (that is... more than himself) concerning an idea (he accepted), scientific or else, he would be a believer by faith not by mind.

Yous said:
"We have faith in a theory because it has been put to the test by observation and found to work."

It has been put to the test by whom?!
If this has been done by you, in one way or another (even indirectly by using 'your' logical reasoning, for example), your belief would be based on reason, not faith.

Interesting point, because some people, let's say, make mistakes of the scientific kind because of putting together the evidence and then taking odds when applying it. Medication, for example. Scientists test, percentages are taken, some get sick regardless of taking the medication, some get well. Religion is somewhat of a different story. But to be examined also.

 

[KerimF]

For comparison, look at the 'groupthink' of any religion. What happens when a pastor steps out of line? What happens if someone disagrees with the accepted orthodoxy? They are expelled and condemned.

I am an independent engineer running my small business since more than 40 years. I also met whom we may call 'groupthink' of science and I was expelled soon after I presented a novel applied idea in electronics (with all necessary details) which is supposed in their belief it can't exist (be realized). They didn't even try to discuss it or test it (by using a simulator for example). I just saw myself thrown out without hearing even one comment.

I had the chance to be also expelled from Catechism soon after hearing me say to my students
Our Father in Heaven and Jesus are unified by the Spirit of Love, the Holy Spirit and have, therefore, One Will (God) towards any outsider as if they were just One Being.
I was told that I had to follow how the Vatican represents Trinity as a triangle, the combination of Sun/heat/light.... etc.

After all, Jesus didn't forget to warn me that being expelled from some houses is natural and could happen anytime to anyone

 

[Trailblazer]

I understand your standard. It is "Bahaollah said so." Other than that you do not need any evidence.

No, no, no..... Baha'u'llah said so is NOT the evidence. In have said this numerous times so I see no need to repeat it ever again. Why don't you read what I write? Is there any reason I should write posts to you if you do not read them?

 

[Dan From Smithville]

No, no, no..... Baha'u'llah said so is NOT the evidence. In have said this numerous times so I see no need to repeat it ever again. Why don't you read what I write? Is there any reason I should write posts to you if you do not read them?

I know how you feel. I have been getting that same thing on another thread. I write it. The response is to nothing I have written.

 

[Trailblazer]

I know how you feel. I have been getting that same thing on another thread. I write it. The response is to nothing I have written.

Sorry to hear that but I am not surprised.
How many times do you think we should repeat ourselves before we call it a day?