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Featured A Person Believes in Science by Faith if...

Discussion in 'Science and Religion' started by KerimF, Jun 12, 2021.

  1. MikeF

    MikeF Proponent of RAEism
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    Sorry to jump in, but I must disagree. Blind faith is always a bad thing. Blind faith connotes belief in something without supporting evidence, or belief despite conflicting evidence and sticking with that belief, regardless of outcome.
    Yes, we often have to make choices or decisions on things with limited or insufficient information. But when we choose, the choice always involves some calculation based on all our previous experiences. Yes, we sometimes have to guess, take a chance, or randomly choose, but it is never blind faith. Once the choice is made, we continue to evaluate as things unfold. And if things go awry, it is the fool who blindly holds course with faith that the correct decision was made.

    We don't have faith in a particular outcome of an ill-informed choice, we have hope that the best choice was made.
     
    #121 MikeF, Jun 13, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2021
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  2. It Aint Necessarily So

    It Aint Necessarily So Well-Known Member
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    Yes, which is what I alluding to with the opening words - accusing the scientific community of what is more true of other communities such as the religious community. We also saw this with the Liz Cheney matter. Step outside of groupthink and have your head metaphorically removed.

    But not in science, as long as you are doing good science. If you're Michael Behe, you're not just outside of the mainstream in biology, you're not even doing science any more. You've left empiricism and basic, undirected exploration of nature for faith-based beliefs and goal-directed research in search of a god. Challenging an accepted tenet of science is altogether different from challenging the scientific method itself.

    This is a common theme - dealing with people who are unaware that there are other ways of thinking than by faith, projecting the values of their religious communities onto scientific ones, and projecting their faith-based thinking onto the rational evaluation of evidence. They seem to simply be unaware that other people have other ways of thinking that are radically different from theirs. Hence, every world view becomes a religion, every belief is believed by faith, atheists actually believe in gods (they can't imagine how it's possible not to) but hate them and are rebelling against them, atheists are guessing that there is no god just as the theist is guessing that there is one when the atheist repeatedly explains that he has not guessed either way and remains agnostic about gods. They don't seem to believe that that is possible since they rarely write anything that would make one believe that they know what the atheist actually believes and claims.

    Juries that say that an innocent person is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt are not thinking critically, are not thinking well. They should be aware that there is reasonable doubt if there is, and vote accordingly. When biases creep into the mix, that's faith-based thinking again - unjustified belief - ideas like "He looks guilty" or "He wouldn't be on trial if he didn't break some law."

    Yes, it is.

    But that is considered a rational bias, a constructive one. It was the replacing of faith-based thinking with reason and evidence-based thinking that turned creationism into biological evolution, alchemy into chemistry, and astrology into astronomy, in each case transforming a useless belief system into one that can be used to accurately predict some of the behavior of nature. That seems like pretty compelling evidence to me that wrong can be converted to right by removing unjustified belief and replacing it with empirically justified belief only.

    Bias isn't always a bad thing. If rational, biases are useful things. They help us choose one course of action over another, and if they are sound, they will help us to do that effectively. Learning is the accumulation of biases, and if we learn well, only rational, justified biases.
     
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  3. KerimF

    KerimF Active Member

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    Oh, sorry. By the way I also noticed here that the word 'faith' could have many different meanings.

    I meant by faith on my OP as believing an idea with the hope it is true. This happens when someone cannot verify to how far an idea, he heard of, could be true and/or real, based on his own observations/experiments and/or his logical reasoning. But, at the same time, he has somehow a solid impression that it is true (this applies on any idea, scientific or else).

    But, to be realistic, a wise person doesn't expect that the source, he ended up seeing it trustworthy, could be so to many others who likely have found other sources as being trustworthy.

    I am afraid that while an absolute knowledge/truth exists, only a subset of it is all what a human may need to know in his life. And this subset doesn't have to be the same to all humans. In fact, every human has his own unique subset (as his unique DNA :) ) This explains why arguing and debating will last till the end of time :D
     
  4. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Seriously?

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    Some things we can have faith in without evidence and others we don't need evidence for it to be beneficial. Outside of religion, it could be just acting on something at the last as a life or death decision instead of thinking about it before one reacts. Blind faith (or just faith-since faith, by definition, is blind) could be being vulnerable to be love and to love. Blind faith could be trusting (having faith) that your militant peer will "catch" you when you fall or protect you.

    If in a religious sense, it could be that you're trusting when you wake up in the morning your day will be well meaning and positive. It means not taking something for granted.

    It can be bad for, say, if you have faith X medicine works but don't study it to see if it does. Some things you need evidence and others its not necessary.

    Most cases, I guess, we tend to calculate the risk and evidence but by definition faith is taking a wild jump without needing to know 100% that its going to work. It's doing or believing something that benefits you cause of evidential experience not (as life doesn't work this way) trying to figure out physical evidence (instead of experience) for every decision we make.

    Blind faith isn't a good word. It's just faith.

    We hope for it, yes... we try not to take it for granted by looking at the evidence and weighing benefits and consequences. Some things like love, safety, and living in an unknown world people have some sort of faith without needing to check every thing that comes to mind.

    If we tried to check physical evidence for every single decision we make, we'd be wasting time with the little time we have on earth. Faith can be bad when one takes something for granted or it can be good when one has the courage to do/believe/say something he or she feels is is in his best interest even though he or she doesn't know the benefit or consequence of.
     
  5. KerimF

    KerimF Active Member

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    You are right. But it is not my fault :( that those who wrote the dictionaries have no idea yet that many ideas, said scientific, are also believed by most people around the world based on blind faith in their sources... exactly as believers in formal religions are supposed to do.
     
  6. KerimF

    KerimF Active Member

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    After all, I have to admit that without the great efforts to convince people (mainly in USA, if not in its submitted free world as well) of what they were supposed to believe while they are allowed to see on their monitors the outstanding events of the moon landing(s), launching afterwards real outer-space missions would have been delayed a few decades due to lack of enough investments. Fortunately, their various well-prepared scenarios worked very well and things went on as planned. Now the entire world could be controlled for the good and the bad (as it is the case always in human history though it was to a lesser extent) :D
     
  7. Kooky

    Kooky Freedom from Sanity

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    Ah, thanks for letting me know that continueing to talk to you is going to be a waste of my time.
     
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  8. KerimF

    KerimF Active Member

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    By the way, to be precise, I wasn't referring to scientific ideas of general use (like of Math, Physics, Chemistry... etc), but to the ones that can serve, when believed by the world, certain economical and/or political agenda of the world's Elite around the world. It happens that the world now, unlike in the past time, is much like a village which can be controlled and supervised, therefore, by one international powerful rich group who have the means to control all peoples around the world via their ruling systems, so-called independent, that have to play their given roles, before their people and the world, as allied or enemies to this or that camp. And by playing the good, the bad and the ugly towards each other, on the news, any global well-planned artificial event could be presented on our monitors as being natural. I think this is enough to say here... otherwise we will have to discuss the evolved Art of Politics by which millions, if not billions, could be driven and controlled now without serious complains :)
     
  9. Bird123

    Bird123 Well-Known Member

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    Every person believes in science by faith. Until one actually Discovers the Truth for themselves, it's a belief. On the other hand, science experiments can be copied. The information they speak of can be investigated and discovered.

    Religion is not the same as science. Religion wants everyone to stop at beliefs because that is all they have. This is the reason science will Discover God before religion will. Yes, contrary to popular belief, science is walking toward God.

    Truth is not always an agreeable thing. In addition, religion does not correct their mistakes because they think they do not make any. Further, religion never searches for new knowledge. This wanders one away from the Real Truth and God.

    Science does correct the mistakes when they are found or when new knowledge is Discovered. This is a must for anyone who seeks or values Real Truth.

    I think everyone should Discover what they really seek for themselves. If one really must follow, which is going to be the more reliable source? Science has it hands down.

    That's what I see. It's very clear!!
     
  10. KerimF

    KerimF Active Member

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    After all, in case of an academic scientist whose job or research is of general use, there would be no reason to control him in any way. On the other hand, let us note that no one in the world is ready to listen to a free independent scientist other than those who live and/or work with him (and his students if he is also a teacher).
     
  11. MikeF

    MikeF Proponent of RAEism
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    Yes, these are all ways in which the word 'faith' is used, and people use it in those contexts, but I really do not like the word 'faith', especially the phrase "blind faith". :)

    Edit: 'Faith' is often used as a synonym for 'hope', however, I think the term 'faith' conveys more of a sense of surety. It is a religious term/concept, the use of which has bled into non-religious use. In all your examples, I feel that the true sentiment or emotion being expressed is hope, not faith. When we make these guesses, or take our chance with love, we, deep down, acknowledge the true lack of surety in the choice, that it is really just hope that is being expressed.
    Blind faith, a surety in a belief or conviction, without evidence or in spite of conflicting evidence, should never be embraced or valued. And if we have supported surety or confidence, then the word 'faith' does not apply, should not be used.
     
    #131 MikeF, Jun 13, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2021
  12. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    Why not? Since they *are* free and independent, they are the most likely to be reliable.

    And, just to note, academic scientists are *often* consulted by outside sources for their honest opinions. One of the ethical rules *should* be that they get to publish their results no matter what they discover.
     
  13. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    I think it is a huge mistake to believe that all of the 'elites' of the world have interests that align. And, if the interests differ, there will still be power struggles within the elites and disagreements about what to do and say. In that context, it would be impossible to keep anything like this going for the decades you seem to think has happened.

    In other words, I call garbage on this viewpoint. Any real analysis of the forces that would have to be involved shows quickly that they are not possible, even with today's technology simply because people are not uniform (and that includes the elites).
     
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  14. Dan From Smithville

    Dan From Smithville Veteran Member
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    Even as a scientist, I cannot know all that is known in science or what all other scientists know. I have to place my confidence in the system and those scientists when they are writing about their areas of expertise. You could call that faith I suppose.
     
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  15. Dan From Smithville

    Dan From Smithville Veteran Member
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    I am not sure why you think I missed that.

    I don't recall taking exams that way. If it reflected the way that I was taught, that would be the only homage to the teacher that taught me. I am not exactly sure what you mean.
     
  16. Dan From Smithville

    Dan From Smithville Veteran Member
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    That is an idea that seems to be crawling out of the discussion of this thread. Another depiction of a conspiracy of some global elite that runs things and everyone knows, but no one knows. All these divergent elites that can come together unanimously on global control sounds more like a bad sci-fi plot than anything else.
     
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  17. Dan From Smithville

    Dan From Smithville Veteran Member
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    I would imagine there are many people that have managed to stay alive for 30 or more years that don't even know how they did it or have any opinion on science.
     
  18. Dan From Smithville

    Dan From Smithville Veteran Member
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    I think that is an important point. New ideas are not just accepted on faith, but are run through the wringer. If they come out the other side in one piece, then they become the next great idea to be challenged, examined, supported where the evidence warrants or upended, again where the evidence warrants.

    A lot of concepts that we accept today took a lot of time to reach that level of acceptance. And there are a lot of concepts that never made it too.
     
  19. Dan From Smithville

    Dan From Smithville Veteran Member
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    I learned a lot from my teachers and advisors in settings far from the classroom.

    Sometimes setting around a table with pizza and beer, you learn a lot.
     
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  20. KerimF

    KerimF Active Member

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    Thank you for raising this point.
    Well, the missing part in the story is that, at the time of Apollo missions, no ruling system in the world dared opposing directly the new greatest power. This powerful system was able to get rid, very cleverly, of three world's powers in the 20th century. The first one was the Ottoman Empire which was made out of the power’s game by using the British and French hands. Then, it was the turn of Britain and France to be out by using the German hands (besides some other European ones). Please note, I don’t expect you to believe anything I said here for two reasons: it is safer for you not to know any truth which is supposed to be hidden from the multitudes and believing a hidden truth or not won’t change anything in the world other than talking more about it :)
     
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