YHWH: Worship ONE GOD, not MANY GODS. Worship Me, alone!

[moorea944]

A third of the stars were pulled down to earth by the tail of dragon (Rev 12:4) Heaven was in rebellion or came into rebellion because of Satan and God knew it would happen or had happened.
You have nothing but speculation when it comes to saying that Satan or any angel was involved in the creation. Actually Gen 1:1 tells us that God created the heavens, meaning also the place where the angels would dwell. Sometime after that the angels would also have been created, we are not told when, just that it was would probably have been after the creation of the heavens.
You do not know God does not do things physically, that is speculation. Do you think that when God was walking in Eden that He sent an angel to walk for Him?
Satan's challenge, even if it was just over the creation, was over part of the Kingdom of God. But really the creation is the Kingdom of God. Do you have a speculation that the angels were not created?
It was the pre-human Jesus whom we are told was involved in the creation,,,,,,that is all we have in the Bible. The Word was there in the beginning, before the creation and all things were brought into existence through Him. We certainly know that the Word existed as a being before He became a man, that is told to us directly in Phil 2 for example.
Obviously Satan thought he should rule or challenge or something and the Bible tells us that he was corrupted by his beauty, he was proud. That is a good enough reason for him to do what he did. (Ezek 28:17)



You seemed to be implying that only the physical creation was the creation.

The scriptures certainly say that YAHWEH alone created the heavanS and the earth.



Sounds like you are saying God did not create the spiritual abode in the beginning (Gen 1:1)



Are you denying what is in the Bible in some places just to justify your interpretations, and saying it was altered later?
The Messiah is a man, and it is Yahweh who is the redeemer. The man was coming and as Mal 3:1 suggests, that man will be God.
3 persons yes but one God.
Jesus is Yahweh according to the scriptures even if you want to reject part of them for your doctrines.
Jesus became the human son and inherits from His Father. Ps 82 says that Yahweh inherits the earth and Ps 2 says the Messiah inherits the earth. The 2 are the one Yahweh.
The Kingdoms of the earth have become the Kingdom of God. How is this possible if God is almighty God? (Rev 11:15) Same question you pose about Jesus.
Then you go on to suggest again that the creation Jesus rules over is just the physical creation.
Co-equal means that they have the same nature, God nature, and Jesus is the Son.

[A third of the stars were pulled down to earth by the tail of dragon (Rev 12:4) Heaven was in rebellion or came into rebellion because of Satan and God knew it would happen or had happened.]
Have you ever done a study on Revelation? I dont think you have. Do you know what it's all about? First of all, the Dragon and Beasts in Revelation, go with some of the beasts in Daniel 2 & esp 7. The beasts in Daniel are the kingdoms of man. And the fourth beast or kingdom is here at the return of Christ. Revelation is a symbolic book. You have to remember that.

The beasts and dragon in Revelation are just one kingdom as it changes through time from John to the return of Christ. They are called Dragons and Beasts for a reason..... Starts out with the Roman Empire, changes through time with the Seals, Trumpets, Vials, Thunder judgements. The Seals are pagan Rome, Trumpets are Christian Rome, Vials are the Holy Roman Empire.

The woman riding a scarlet colored beast? It's not an actual woman riding an actual beast, it represents something. It represents the Catholic pagan system which will be destroyed at Christ's return. It's not just the pope that scripture doesnt like, it's what that system did to the christians throughout time and history. You have pagans persecuting the christians, then that changes to Christians persercuting the Christians.

[The scriptures certainly say that YAHWEH alone created the heavanS and the earth.]
Wow!!! Finally!!!!

[Jesus is Yahweh according to the scriptures even if you want to reject part of them for your doctrines.]
Jesus is Yahweh? So when Paul starts out with most of his letters saying that Jesus has a God that he worships and a Father in Heaven....... He's lying to us????? Wow, I did not know that......

 

[Redemptionsong]

[You, and Soapy, say that you believe that God is in Christ....yet you deny it by denying the deity of Christ.]
Absolutely not!! If that's the case then, we are all gods too. John 17 talks about that. God being in Jesus and Jesus in God. Same with us..... The issue here is that your already making Jesus God before you even go into the bible.

[If 'only God is good', then Christ is only (all) good if he is God.]
But Christ isnt God. Your making him God. Doesnt scripture tell us that there is only one God? So what your saying is that the bible is wrong and that there are two Gods. God and Jesus.

[Only God is all good
Christ is all good
Therefore, Christ is God.]
Ughhhhh........

[So, you have to decide whether Christ was ALL GOOD. Maybe you think he was 98% good, or 75% good....in which case he was NOT GOD.]
First of all, Jesus is not God. That's where we have to start. Jesus was talking about his nature. A nature that he got from his mother that is prone to sin. Jesus could have sinned if he wanted to, but chose not to. The messiah had to conquer sin, if Jesus was God, then it wouldnt have made any sense, there would be no temptation there at all. Jesus was a good person, but again, he's talking about his nature, he's not immortal yet. That perfect nature.

Plus, I"m not understanding your language here. What do you mean by "all good"? Is this something like your "very God"?

[Let me know where you think he falls short!]
I dont think Jesus falls short of anything.... do you? Is there a verse that tells us that he falls short of something? We do... we fall short of God's glory everyday. But God was working through his son.... That's how Jesus was able to conquer sin. God was working with Jesus. God was in Christ reconciling the world back to Him.

Let's not forget the Trinitarian belief: Jesus Christ, on earth, was fully man and fully God. He was flesh and blood, with the Holy Spirit 'resting' upon him.

I don't believe Jesus Christ falls short of the glory of God. I am, therefore, like Thomas, prepared to exclaim, 'My Lord and my God'. Are you?

The fact that the Word dwelt amongst men in flesh does not diminish the Spirit. It was still the Spirit of God present amongst us! But because he had a human frame, many people were confused. People needed to have spiritual perception to recognise the Spirit of God in Jesus.

Matthew 16:16,17. 'And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.'

 

[Brian2]

[A third of the stars were pulled down to earth by the tail of dragon (Rev 12:4) Heaven was in rebellion or came into rebellion because of Satan and God knew it would happen or had happened.]
Have you ever done a study on Revelation? I dont think you have. Do you know what it's all about? First of all, the Dragon and Beasts in Revelation, go with some of the beasts in Daniel 2 & esp 7. The beasts in Daniel are the kingdoms of man. And the fourth beast or kingdom is here at the return of Christ. Revelation is a symbolic book. You have to remember that.

The beasts and dragon in Revelation are just one kingdom as it changes through time from John to the return of Christ. They are called Dragons and Beasts for a reason..... Starts out with the Roman Empire, changes through time with the Seals, Trumpets, Vials, Thunder judgements. The Seals are pagan Rome, Trumpets are Christian Rome, Vials are the Holy Roman Empire.

The woman riding a scarlet colored beast? It's not an actual woman riding an actual beast, it represents something. It represents the Catholic pagan system which will be destroyed at Christ's return. It's not just the pope that scripture doesnt like, it's what that system did to the christians throughout time and history. You have pagans persecuting the christians, then that changes to Christians persercuting the Christians.

The weeds and the wheat in the Church, whoever they may be,) will be there in the Church till Jesus returns
(Matt 13:24-30)
In Rev 12 the dragon is identified as Satan. (Rev 12:9)

[The scriptures certainly say that YAHWEH alone created the heavanS and the earth.]

Wow!!! Finally!!!!

[Jesus is Yahweh according to the scriptures even if you want to reject part of them for your doctrines.]
Jesus is Yahweh? So when Paul starts out with most of his letters saying that Jesus has a God that he worships and a Father in Heaven....... He's lying to us????? Wow, I did not know that......

Interestingly I don't think it says that Jesus worships the Father but I guess He would. Certainly we are to worship Jesus and even the angels are told to worship Him.
Heb 1:6And again, when God brings His firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all God’s angels worship Him.”
After all He was the God of Thomas, a Jew with only one God (John 20:28) and so is our God also.
No Paul is not lying. Jesus is a man and so has a God. His Father became His God when He was in Mary's womb. (Ps 22:10). Jesus was a being before that (see Phil 2) and He took on the nature (inner form) of a servant. (Phil 2) He had to do that because He was not a servant of God before He became a man.
Jesus was Yahweh along with the Holy Spirit and the Father at that time and Phil 2 tells us that He kept the nature of God even after He took the nature of a servant and became a man.

 

[Brian2]

I totally disagree. We do know that it was an angel, Stephen even says it in Acts 7 when he's in the court system. This is God manifestation. God working through angels or someone else. God would never come down to earth, there is no reason for that at all. He has his angels, prophets, Jesus when he was here to carry out His plans.

Man was made in the image of the Elohim. But was does image and likeness mean? We have a mind that is capable of understanding spiritual things, animals cant do that. Scripture tells us that if we dont use our minds for spiritual things or the things of God we are just like the animals that perish... Christ was in the "image" of his father and ..... the likeness. We also try to manifest God in us too, though we fail, we still try. We want to be like God in a way that we can have a spiritual mind, not a carnal mind. (Romans 8). We know that Jesus is not God, he is the image or manifestation of God. He is everything that God represents. They are insynce together, Christ wants to do his father's will, not his own will.

Certain angels can speak for God as if He was there himself. Certain angels can also forgive sins. (Exodus 23). Apostles could do that to, we read that in Acts. In Psalms it says that the angels do God's work. What work do they do then?......

The Angel that went with Israel in the wilderness was the Holy Spirit whom is God's name.(Ex 23:20,21) also see. Isa 63:10.
Jesus also went with them and is said to be the Rock that followed them. (1Cor 10:4)
We cannot regain that lost image of God unless we are born again of God and with the Spirit of God/Christ, who joins with our spirit.
The Angel in the bush imo was Jesus. He was sent by the Father but is Himself Yahweh and is identified as Yahweh. I gave you a link to a site with information about the special angels who are identified as God. Nobody has seen the invisible Father but people saw the Angel of His presence (Isa 63:9) in whatever form He took at the time.

 

[Brian2]

[You are mistaken when you say that heaven was not in rebellion.]
Heaven is not or has ever been in rebellion. That's like saying that God is not in control of Heaven. That's horrible. And that totally degrades our Heavenly Father.

Heaven certainly went into some sort of civil war, hence Rev 12:4 (Rev 12:9 showing it was Satan who hurled the stars down.) No doubt God saw it coming and the whole battle on earth has been to correct that rebellion and the rebellion on earth. It is not degrading God to say that some of His creations turned against Him, look at the world. It happened and Satan is behind it and a liar and murderer from the start.

[But we know that the Jesus did these things (Heb 1:10-12) and that is quote from Psalm 102:25 about Yahweh is being applied to Jesus.]

This has nothing to do with Jesus. This is David talking about how God created everything. How do you get Jesus in that verse?

Heb 1:8 But of the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has anointed you
with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.”
10 And,
“You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning,
and the heavens are the work of your hands;
11 they will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment,
12 like a robe you will roll them up,
like a garment they will be changed.
But you are the same,
and your years will have no end.”

It is what the Father has said about His Son, just as Heb 1:8,9 is. Can you see that?

[Jesus is and always has been Yahweh.]

No we're just talking stupid...... I know that your not reading that in the bible, so who's telling you that Jesus is Yahweh?..... Just curious...

I gave you Heb 1:10. Look at 1Pet 2:8, another quote about Yahweh applied to Jesus (see Isa 8:14)
I read that Jesus inherited a name (Heb 1:4) and that this name is the name above all names and that at the mention of that name we will worship (Phil 2:9-11).
This name belonged to Jesus all along (John 16:15) but it seems that when He became a man and servant He had to inherit it back from His Father even though He had the nature of the Father even as a man.
I know that Jesus is the God of Thomas, a Jew with only one God, and so is my God and is God. (John 20:28)
When the messenger of the Covenant came to His temple that implies that the messenger (Jesus ) is God.
There are many other places that tell us that Jesus is Yahweh.

 

[Brian2]

The posts that Brian2 makes are so full of dishonest, disingenuous nonsense that you and I quite rightly have to ask where Brian/ and his type are seeing their nonsense.

I have been posting the scriptures of where I see what you call nonsense.
You seem to be so enthralled in the lies that you have hardened your heart against the scriptures.

And ask them what is the beginning and the end of Jesus. What does scriptures say?

They will not answer - like stone and wood gods, they know not, They speak not.

What does that even mean? The beginning and the end of Jesus.
Tell me and I will try to give you an answer.

But if he was God all along like trinity people claim, why is he GRANTED to sit NEXT TO GOD, and be GRANTED the privilege of reconciling the creation to himself and then handing it over TO GOD! Only for GOD to later GRANT him to become RULER over creation - Creation he is supposed to have made all by himself... All by himself FROM THE Father, WITH the Holy Spirit.... ALONE!!

So, by trinity, Jesus, who is God over all things, becomes God over a physical created world that is far far less than the great kingdom of Heaven that he is supposed to be ruler over.... Do you see the endless recursion in their false belief:

Have you noticed in the scriptures that the pre human Jesus became a servant and a man, the Son of God who inherits what already belongs to Him. The wisdom of God has enable Him to bring about reconciliation through the death of His Son, as a man, and yet that Son still end up in the position He should be and being Emmanuel, God with us, and ruling as God.

• Trinity God is one yet God is three
  [*]Trinity God is an inseparable unity
  [*]Trinity God is immutable but one PART of him changes
  [*]Trinity God becomes man and voluntarily losses his ability to be God - except that he lied because he remained fully God!!!!
  [*]After dying - in which he DIDN’T die, GOD raised him up again... but God died???? Yet trinity christians commemorate GOD dying - and GOD raising up God again...!!!
  [*]So God raised up God to Heaven and made God to sit next to THE ALMIGHTY GOD... Trinity says that only God could sit next to God... because these two ARE ONE three person God... that’s what they say!
  [*]God, the little, God without power and authority, is GIVEN power and authority by God the big... (no mention of God the other!)
  [*]After doing his duty, God the little, who is God the big now that he has god the bigs power and authority, hand that power and authority back to God the big who he is himself... he hands it back to himself, so trinity ideology goes. But in handing back the power and authority God the little, who is God the big, REMAINS god the big even after he has not got the power and authority of god the big.... weird!
  [*]And finally, god is given by God the rulership of what he, god the little, CREATED... according to trinity.

Does that sound weird to you ... but that’s what trinity says.

Now ask them to set out their belief from beginning to end justifying using the scriptures - NOT TRINITY IDEOLOGY ... they cannot!!!

Maybe you should ask me to set out those beliefs instead of the parody that you gave and I will try, using scripture.
There are scriptures that I have used which you are not touching. Why?

 

[Brian2]

So why does everyone else in the bible says it was an angel.... Why are you saying that it was God himself? Think about what your saying..
Acts 7v30 "And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sinai an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush."

God does not come down to earth, there is no reason for that. He has his angels that speak for him. No one can see God and live....... And no one has ever seen God.....

It was a messenger from the Father, and that messenger was the Son. Simple really. The angel identifies Himself as YHWH and it is YHWH speaking out of the bush. It IS an angel and it IS YHWH. It might boggle your mind that God is 3 persons in the one God. It boggles my mind also but that is no reason to reject it.

 

[Brian2]

Moorea944 has given you the response to this: The speaker was an Angel sent by God speaking on behalf of God.

And yes, I know what ‘Angel’ means. With your definition, though, you are saying that GOD sent himself!!! That God was his own messenger.
I say to you that you have been taking yes by Trinity Trollop (sorry for the rudeness but if is true!).

Really it is only with your definition of God that God would be sending Himself.

 

[Brian2]

Very true. The poster is trying to put wrongful concepts as if you said it. This smacks of desperation on their part. Both you and I have shown the truth from the scriptures and showed how they marry up perfectly and truthfully:

• ‘God was in Christ ...’ by God’s Holy Spirit.

That is, Jesus was ANOINTED with the Holy Spirit of God at Jesus’ baptism. Can they deny this? NO! So they try to say we said something we didn’t say!

Are you saying that God is in the Holy Spirit or that the Holy Spirit is God or what?

Remember, trinity scriptures says that GOD MADE IT FOR THE SON OF GOD .... isn’t that weird?? Trinity says ‘The Son’ is the same (?) GOD; him/It self. But we know that ‘the Son’ is the physical human Being born BY THE OVERSHADOWING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD to the virgin, Mary... the same one scriptures tells us about:

Jesus was the Son before becoming a man and being conceived through the Holy Spirit in a virgin shows that the man Jesus is that Son. Simple to understand really.
BTW do you have your own scriptures that are different to the Bible that we Trinitarians use?

• And, of course, the trinity Jesus-God was variously a GOD that was SELF-DISEMPOWERED on earth in one moment and WHOLLY GOD in another but yet the very human creation could kill its own creator... doesn’t that seem like a poorly thought out drafted theme from a pagan melodrama? A TRUE GOD can be NOTHING BUT A TRUE GOD. And which TRUE GOD would decide that ‘BEING GOD WAS NOT WORTHWHILE’ as trinity says Phil 2 is supposed to say? (Sounds like Prince Harry of ‘Meghan and Harry’ infamousness wherein Harry wants to be both royal and not royal both at the same time... He’s just found out that it doesn’t work! When will trinity come to the same realisation??)

What do you say that Phil 2 says?

 

[moorea944]

The weeds and the wheat in the Church, whoever they may be,) will be there in the Church till Jesus returns
(Matt 13:24-30)
In Rev 12 the dragon is identified as Satan. (Rev 12:9)



Interestingly I don't think it says that Jesus worships the Father but I guess He would. Certainly we are to worship Jesus and even the angels are told to worship Him.
Heb 1:6And again, when God brings His firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all God’s angels worship Him.”
After all He was the God of Thomas, a Jew with only one God (John 20:28) and so is our God also.
No Paul is not lying. Jesus is a man and so has a God. His Father became His God when He was in Mary's womb. (Ps 22:10). Jesus was a being before that (see Phil 2) and He took on the nature (inner form) of a servant. (Phil 2) He had to do that because He was not a servant of God before He became a man.
Jesus was Yahweh along with the Holy Spirit and the Father at that time and Phil 2 tells us that He kept the nature of God even after He took the nature of a servant and became a man.

Again, this is symbolic language. What does "satan" mean. What does "devil" mean in the org lang?

 

[moorea944]

The Angel that went with Israel in the wilderness was the Holy Spirit whom is God's name.(Ex 23:20,21) also see. Isa 63:10.
Jesus also went with them and is said to be the Rock that followed them. (1Cor 10:4)
We cannot regain that lost image of God unless we are born again of God and with the Spirit of God/Christ, who joins with our spirit.
The Angel in the bush imo was Jesus. He was sent by the Father but is Himself Yahweh and is identified as Yahweh. I gave you a link to a site with information about the special angels who are identified as God. Nobody has seen the invisible Father but people saw the Angel of His presence (Isa 63:9) in whatever form He took at the time.

There was no reason for Jesus to be in that bush. He wasnt born yet to begin with.... Bible says angel, you say no. Dont know what to tell you.

 

[Brian2]

Again, this is symbolic language. What does "satan" mean. What does "devil" mean in the org lang?

Rev 12:7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Really? What sort of interpretation do you put on this?

 

[Brian2]

There was no reason for Jesus to be in that bush. He wasnt born yet to begin with.... Bible says angel, you say no. Dont know what to tell you.

When I say Jesus I am referring to the pre human Jesus. That should be obvious.
The Bible says angel and I agree, the pre human Jesus was sent as a messenger to the bush imo.
That is the only reason that the angel could identify as being Yahweh, because we see in the New Testament that Jesus is Yahweh.

 

[moorea944]

Rev 12:7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Really? What sort of interpretation do you put on this?

And you believe in the dragons and beasts with 7 heads and 10 horns, right?....

 

[moorea944]

When I say Jesus I am referring to the pre human Jesus. That should be obvious.
The Bible says angel and I agree, the pre human Jesus was sent as a messenger to the bush imo.
That is the only reason that the angel could identify as being Yahweh, because we see in the New Testament that Jesus is Yahweh.

Pre-human Jesus? Wow!!! I must have missed that memo.....

 

[Brian2]

And you believe in the dragons and beasts with 7 heads and 10 horns, right?....

I have not definite interpretation of Revelation, I am letting it fall into place as I learn more.
I think the dragons and beasts with 7 heads and 10 horns could be referring to the spiritual principalities behind certain nations etc.

 

[Brian2]

Pre-human Jesus? Wow!!! I must have missed that memo.....

Sorry you have to expect this from trinitarians. A late memo is better than none at all. As you say Jesus was not born yet so it had to be the pre-human Jesus.

 

[moorea944]

Sorry you have to expect this from trinitarians. A late memo is better than none at all. As you say Jesus was not born yet so it had to be the pre-human Jesus.

Why does it "have to be"..... a pre-human.... Why cant we just believe that Jesus was born...

 

[Brian2]

Why does it "have to be"..... a pre-human.... Why cant we just believe that Jesus was born...

What I meant was that Jesus had not been born yet when the angel appeared in the burning bush so if I said Jesus I obviously meant the pre human Jesus.
I do believe Jesus was begotten in Mary and was born as a human, the descendant of David through Mary. I also believe other passages which tell us of Jesus pre existence before becoming a man, and that He is the Son of God and so has the nature of His Father and is equal to His Father in that way and that He has a Father/Son relationship with His Father always and since He became a man His Father is now His God, which does not stop Jesus from being our God.
All these and more are shown in the scriptures.

 

[Soapy]

When I say Jesus I am referring to the pre human Jesus. That should be obvious.
The Bible says angel and I agree, the pre human Jesus was sent as a messenger to the bush imo.
That is the only reason that the angel could identify as being Yahweh, because we see in the New Testament that Jesus is Yahweh.

So the so-called prehuman Jesus of trinity fallacy was an Angel (messenger) AND ALMIGHTY GOD?

Amazing pagan god that subordinates himself and sends himself into his own creation… and glorifies himself in overcoming sin in his own self even though true God cannot sin …