War, the final battle.

[CG Didymus]

This is how the Baha'i see the Bible.

"THIS book is the Holy Book of God, of celestial Inspiration. It is the Bible of Salvation, the Noble Gospel. It is the mystery of the Kingdom and its light. It is the Divine Bounty, the sign of the guidance of God" ‘Abdu’l-Bahá Abbás.

Regards Tony

Yes, and then read the fine print. Creation? Fantasy. Satan? A myth. The resurrection? Didn't happen. World wide flood? Nope. People living to be hundreds of years old? Give me a break. People really take this stuff literally? Why pretend that Baha'is "love" the Bible so much? The "Noble Gospel"? The thing Baha'is say is embellishments and allegory? This is part of why Baha'is lose their credibility. I agree with you on most all of the criticisms of the Bible. It probably isn't historically accurate. Things in it are probably very likely mythical things people made up. But then, I don't turn around and say how I think it is the most Holy and most wonderful book ever written.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I don't know the details of the meaning of the words that they say Jesus used, but my Christian friends seemed to believe the "Father" was God himself. And Baha'is don't believe Baha'u'llah if God himself, so why and how do you make him the "Father"? You guys didn't even have a definitive answer on who the "Lamb" was.

Baha'u'llah has explained all we can ever know about God is the Messengers. They are the 'Self of God'. Jesus can in the Station of the Son, Baha’u’llah came in the Station of the Father.

God is neither son nor father. God is above all attributes, attributes we see in the Messengers, the Word of God.

I think the key may be that we can in no way know what is God, so all we discuss in relation to God, is knowledge of the Messengers.

Maybe this opens new frames of references? Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes, and then read the fine print. Creation? Fantasy. Satan? A myth. The resurrection? Didn't happen. World wide flood? Nope. People living to be hundreds of years old? Give me a break. People really take this stuff literally? Why pretend that Baha'is "love" the Bible so much? The "Noble Gospel"? The thing Baha'is say is embellishments and allegory? This is part of why Baha'is lose their credibility. I agree with you on most all of the criticisms of the Bible. It probably isn't historically accurate. Things in it are probably very likely mythical things people made up. But then, I don't turn around and say how I think it is the most Holy and most wonderful book ever written.

I will stand by my Love for the Word of God, I will not refute any passage. I will try to find understanding I am yet to consider.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

I see the Baha'i Faith is the guide that enables us to find the Truth in all Faiths.

Jesus said Christ would return to guide us to all Truth.

Regards Tony

Yes, what they believe is wrong and what the Baha'i Faith says about them is what is true. And that very well might be. Or, the Baha'i Faith is just another one of the many religions that spring up and say that they have the truth. Lots of choices. But, you should feel good about so many of us asking so many questions. It shows that you're in the running and not so weird that most people just ignore you.

 

[Aupmanyav]

.. against a God given reality.

I am an atheist. For me there is neither any God or Allah, nor any prophets / sons / messengers / manifestations / mahdis allegedly sent by him. All fakes.

 

[rational experiences]

Okay, If I was a born again Christian my reality would be that Jesus is alive and that some day soon he is going to come back and destroy Satan. And that Christians will be raptured to meet Jesus in the air. Is that "crazy"? Yes, to lots of us, but it's part of their "reality" So should they be institutionalized?

Destroy.

Not spiritual. Not. Spiritual answer.

And you can't heal Satan as science advice is its manifested condition.

Fact natural history two human parents for everyone. Same DNA same parents. Science proven.

Baby to adult brother born was evolving by status atmospheric amassing heard ancient science that had destroyed all life a long time ago. Before Moses after ice age.

Moses was a story told after the fact of mutated life healing after science repracticed. Science was reassessed again. To be repracticed. Why Moses was written as it too was heard.

Before Moses incident temple pyramid rebuilt science copied all life destroyed by satanist science human brothers. Atlantis theme. Crystal mass burnt out God mass.

Exactly what you were warned about.

First two parents owned sex choice were not in reality beholden to marriage ceremony. They were equal natural and owned sex by choice. Not in a marriage.

Natural advice.

After irradiated by science and chemical sexual immorality was introduced a marriage ceremony a binding was introduced at a chosen age. A practice only.

To say ready by age for sex and marriage responsibility.

Humans still found mutual comparability in joining marriage no longer existed like balanced human parents origin life had. Why soul mate was introduced looking for most compatible partnership.

Why law said divorce allowable seeing law was a bible sworn truth.

Known observed realised human deceit self reality. Observation. Seen real. You introduce unnatural effects being science then you inherit not natural behaviour.

And cannot lie about it. Seeing religious science cause was religious practice. Science having owned human chosen motivation as religious practice was based on medical science advice.

Brother superior prophet a chosen human condition based on self presence and self just a human in life owned wisdom. In natural a human civilization status.

Was never a natural purpose.

What you all overlook today even when the documents as science evidence says all humans equal. Means status in real life.

Prophet science caused advice about God in science. Given back to human life changed. By phenomena cause or sacrifice. Either statuses.

 

[loverofhumanity]

As you well know I disagree with that. Prior to Baha'u'llah, what religion was offering a better method of doing anything? In some cultures it was required to belief in the religion of the land. In some religions, the neighboring people were believed to be following false gods and the "real" God wanted his people to kill them.

Do parents let their children make their own decisions, or do they take a hands on approach to teach them to do what the parent believes to be best? And, if there is an all knowing, all wise, just God, then we've got to be considered as pretty ignorant children that need lots of guidance to get us to do the right thing. A religion whose God says don't drink alcohol and don't have sex outside of marriage and not with multiple partners, and then doesn't enforce those rules? How successful will that God be at getting people to do the right thing? But, if that God has some punishments he dishes out for those people that disobey him, then I think more people would be wise to do as he says.

And people pass on the moral duty anyway. I didn't see any Baha'i at the front of the Black Lives Matter rallies. Or, protesting at the places where the U.S. government was holding the Central American children that had been taken from their parents. But both those things are things Baha'is say need to be changed. Abolish racism. Open the borders. The Earth is one country and mankind its citizens. But, can Baha'is jump out in front of those kinds of rallies and protests, or are they too "political"? Were there Baha'is out front and in support of Gandhi or Martin Luther King Jr.?

Regarding movements such as Black Lives Matter. Baha’is promote racial harmony. So instead of protesting against racism, we promote the oneness of humanity.

We believe the current system is beyond repair and there needs to be a new system and it’s up to humanity to learn it needs to change and create a more just and humane system.

God has already built in a system of reward and punishment into this world. We eat tye wrong foods we get sick. We start wars millions die.

Before Muhammad appeared the savage tribes of the Arabian Peninsula constantly warred, raping and pillaging. Muhammad united all these savage tribes into one nation which was a far better situation than before He appeared.

 

[Pete in Panama]

Okay, If I was a born again Christian my reality would be that Jesus is alive and...

Let's pause a sec. In order for us to be able to consult, our words have to mean things and not be whatever suits someone's whim at the moment. What I'm using is a standard definition such as if we type into the top of our browser "define reality" and we get:

Dictionary

reality​

noun

1. the state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them. "he refuses to face reality"
2. the state or quality of having existence or substance. "youth, when death has no reality"
​

This is what I meant, but if one of us defines it some other way then our conversation can go anywhere we want. So let's work together and maintain a shared reality --imho any reality that isn't shared isn't worth much.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes, what they believe is wrong and what the Baha'i Faith says about them is what is true. And that very well might be. Or, the Baha'i Faith is just another one of the many religions that spring up and say that they have the truth. Lots of choices. But, you should feel good about so many of us asking so many questions. It shows that you're in the running and not so weird that most people just ignore you.

I do not know about any other person, but in this life I have made many mistakes I wish I had not made.

Why is humanity as a whole, or indeed any faith, exempt from making mistakes?

Unity of purpose overcomes many mistakes and in faith, that unity of purpose has to be controlled by the Word of God that was left for us.

If you and I pick up a Bible and read, our thoughts on passages will differ. We can unite in those different thoughts, only when we implement the guidance of that same Word, to Love One Another, to do unto others as we would have them do unto us.

The greatest warning in the Bible is not to add to that Word, so it is up to you to determine if set doctrine is a breach of that warning, or not.

What happened to Christains back from the early 100's right up to the 1800's that saw in that Word a different narrative than what the church taught?

CG, I do not think I can offer much more than that. If you consider that a Baha'i does not respect and follow the Word in the Bible, that is entirely up to you. If you see our Love for Christ does not transcend the difference of Interpretation, again that is up to you. The Baha'i will attend Churches and Mosques and other places of worship, to offer prayers for all Humanity in the Names of all Messengers.

We all get to choose.

Regards Tony

 

[Pete in Panama]

You wouldn't be biased in anyway would you? What are the rest of us? Blind people wandering in the darkness?

Here's where I may need to offer my heartfelt apology for having allowed that impression to come up.

Truth is that my suspician is that you may be seeing something that I'm not seeing & I desperately want to understand what it is. I especially have that feeling w/ atheists because more often than not I'm finding that they're very moral people & my take is that they're very in tune w/ the reality of so much that's good. My prob is communicating, and if I gave the impression that y'all are blind then I'll have to sit in the corner a bit...

 

[CG Didymus]

I see the Baha'i Faith is the guide that enables us to find the Truth in all Faiths.

Jesus said Christ would return to guide us to all Truth.

Yes, for those that accept the Baha'i Faith, it should be your guide. But, it leads you to believe the other religions in ways that the followers of those other religions don't believe. The most obvious examples would be Hindus that believe they will reincarnate. The Baha'i Faith "guides" you into believing a different "truth" about what is meant by the word, reincarnation... and it is not what those Hindus believe it to mean.

I can honestly say all the Mesengers of God spoke the Truth.

As to what remains of that spoken word, in the scriptures of the world, is the quandary we all face.

That is a personal choice to determine. I base my understanding on what Baha'u'llah offered.

We don't know what those messengers really said. For Baha'i you know what your messenger said and, I guess, you'd include Muhammad. But who else? So, it sure sounds like Baha'is only have confidence in the Scriptures that Baha'u'llah and Abdul Baha quote. But then, they give their own interpretation of some of those quotes... Like what Abdul Baha' does in SAQ. So that implies that the early Christian on up to today, if they have a different interpretation than Abdul Baha', they are wrong.

So, to me, you might as well be saying, "Here's what the Baha'i Faith believes to be true about all the other religions... everything else is wrong and has been misinterpreted."

 

[CG Didymus]

Let's pause a sec. In order for us to be able to consult, our words have to mean things and not be whatever suits someone's whim at the moment. What I'm using is a standard definition such as if we type into the top of our browser "define reality" and we get:

Dictionary

reality​

noun

1. the state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them. "he refuses to face reality"
2. the state or quality of having existence or substance. "youth, when death has no reality"
​

This is what I meant, but if one of us defines it some other way then our conversation can go anywhere we want. So let's work together and maintain a shared reality --imho any reality that isn't shared isn't worth much.

So if I told you, "Christians see the world totally different than Baha'is. They have a completely different reality.? Would you understand what I'm trying to say?

 

[rational experiences]

Humans own teaching from a baby life by parents and adult extended family community.

Which owns no personal self idolisation the teaching.

To claim a title by a name as a word.

God the spirit movement was the only name and the heavens the body in which we all live sharing the equal life was titled God by cloud amassing cooling functions.

It owned no argument God in heavens.

G swirling motion.
O the completed rolling effect.
DD O constantly splitting.

A movement of spirit gases upon the face of the great deep space with water support.

A relative teaching. Human self idolisation false. Family begins the lesson with the conceived baby in the presence holy God.

One status owning no name as it described spirit movement itself.

Why it owned no argument.

If any man said why is my brother not spiritual when medical science a healer said as DNA exited as genesis exodus historic mutation.

Then he was taught.

Any nation. Multi humans anywhere on earth are a living example God changed in its heavens due to human sciences and natural attacked us.

The answer.

It owns no other human reasoning it was medical advice.

Which caused two of one causes.

Sacrifice of human life or phenomena.

Jesus was a sacrifice of life.
Bahai was a phenomena event.

Medical science states humans X two bodies are equal. We live sharing bio nature in exactly the same heavenly mass. Water oxygen bio life.

Basic human truth.

Anyone today claiming one new way of life is saying we need to return to the one and only way of life. Natural and family based community status.

Elders owning life advice.
Younger healthy humans working.
Babies cared by elderly as mutual support.

The answer the God O earth heart core release UFO planetary effect needed to be allowed to evolve by spatial vacuum conditions so that the earth would eventuate into a non release.

Life would heal. Mind would heal. Behaviour destructive would disappear.


Knowledge about behaviour. When gas mass from wandering star got released out behaviours changed as evidence.

Language manners changed which Baha'i incident proved.

Reason it was removed the nuclear core heart God release.

The total human reason reasoned as evidence of a human observed teaching.

Observing events is not superiority as science the evil false superiority origin claim caused it.

 

[Pete in Panama]

So if I told you, "Christians see the world totally different than Baha'is. They have a completely different reality.? Would you understand what I'm trying to say?

Sure, it would be obvious that you were using one of the more arcane definitions of "reality" and not one of the first two.

This seems to happen a lot w/ certain groups. 'Gay' no longer means 'happily excited', marriage is no longer a union between a man and a woman, and now 'reality' is being redefined as a chosen belief system in defiance of what can be observed. This constant changing of definitions w/o warning may make it easier to pretend we're winning the arguments, but it sure makes interacting tedious.

 

[CG Didymus]

I will stand by my Love for the Word of God, I will not refute any passage.

Love it? But Baha'is don't believe it literally. So Baha'is can make it say anything they want, then... that's what they love. I can see that.

If you consider that a Baha'i does not respect and follow the Word in the Bible, that is entirely up to you.

Those same old things I said early... Creation, the flood, the resurrection, Satan, hell, parting the seas? Baha'is don't believe those things literally happened. And I agree. Except, I think there is a good change it is man made myth. Whereas Baha'is believe it is allegory. And to that I would to know what's the difference between it being myth or allegory? Both make the stories fictional. So what is it that you respect? You act as if you respect it as being The Word of God. That's great. You respect Jewish and Christian allegorical stories.

Now when a Christian or Jew, that believes their Scriptures literally, says that they love and respect their Holy Books as being the Word of God, I believe them. But really, love and respect and call a book of fictional stories "The Word of God"? That what I don't understand.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Love it? But Baha'is don't believe it literally. So Baha'is can make it say anything they want, then... that's what they love. I can see that.

Those same old things I said early... Creation, the flood, the resurrection, Satan, hell, parting the seas? Baha'is don't believe those things literally happened. And I agree. Except, I think there is a good change it is man made myth. Whereas Baha'is believe it is allegory. And to that I would to know what's the difference between it being myth or allegory? Both make the stories fictional. So what is it that you respect? You act as if you respect it as being The Word of God. That's great. You respect Jewish and Christian allegorical stories.

Now when a Christian or Jew, that believes their Scriptures literally, says that they love and respect their Holy Books as being the Word of God, I believe them. But really, love and respect and call a book of fictional stories "The Word of God"? That what I don't understand.

In the end CG, it is about the way we choose to see it, not how others have chosen to do so.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Sure, it would be obvious that you were using one of the more arcane definitions of "reality" and not one of the first two.

This seems to happen a lot w/ certain groups. 'Gay' no longer means 'happily excited', marriage is no longer a union between a man and a woman, and now 'reality' is being redefined as a chosen belief system in defiance of what can be observed. This constant changing of definitions w/o warning may make it easier to pretend we're winning the arguments, but it sure makes interacting tedious.

Okay, let's make this less "tedious" for you. We'll use that same sentence. I tell you, "Christians see the world totally different than Baha'is." And let's add in a couple more... A Christian tells you that Satan is "real". And then says, "Jesus is alive and is coming back soon." So I say, "Well, that's just their reality. They believe the devil is real and that Jesus really came back to life." For you, that would be the wrong use of the word? So you wouldn't call it their "reality" What would you call that?

Oh, and if I used the word wrong, how does that mean that from now on, and without warning, the word "reality", has now been redefined? And then who's is pretending to be "winning" the argument? Since I was the one who said it, I guess you mean me? Well, that's just so Baha'i of you. Sorry that I'm not as smart and as well educated as you. But, like my hero Charlie Sheen, as long as I'm "winning". I know, in reality, he and I are only pretending to win. So congratulations, in true reality, you win.

 

[CG Didymus]

In the end CG, it is about the way we choose to see it, not how others have chosen to do so.

Regards Tony

Tony, we all have to learn from others. You have chosen to go with what the Baha'i Faith teaches, others what Christianity teaches and on and on. Each religion, each sect within each religion teaches something different, a different reality, oops, I'm not supposed to use that word. But you know what I mean. We all have are biases. But when we have been taught that a certain Holy Book and a certain way of understanding that Book is the truth, and another person comes along and say that "reality" is wrong, they are going to point out things in your religion that don't add up and don't make sense.

Unfortunately, it's difficult to see the "good" in others when their religious beliefs go contrary to yours. And that goes for Baha'is too. You can say you believe and love everybody... And love the messengers and Holy Books of all religions, but the reality of it is... it doesn't come across that way.

What I'm hearing is... "All religions started out perfect. The messages from all the prophets had no contradictions in them. But people messed up each and every religion. None of them are teaching the Truth. None of them know the Truth. But now, God has sent a new messenger to reestablish the real Truth. And what he says about the past religions is The Truth. And what he has said for us to do now is what we must do to bring peace, unity and harmony to the world."

So, to me, that's still saying, like most all other religions say and believe, we are right and all the others are wrong. Hindus that don't believe in God, or in multiple Gods, or in reincarnation? Wrong. Christians that believe Satan is real and that Jesus came back to life? Wrong. Baha'is believe all of the other religions have false doctrines and false beliefs mixed in that, Baha'is say, were not part of the "original" teachings of the messenger.

 

[Pete in Panama]

Okay, let's make this less "tedious" for you. We'll use that same sentence. I tell you, "Christians see the world totally different than Baha'is." And let's add in a couple more... A Christian tells you that Satan is "real". And then says, "Jesus is alive and is coming back soon." So I say, "Well, that's just their reality. They believe the devil is real and that Jesus really came back to life." For you, that would be the wrong use of the word? So you wouldn't call it their "reality" What would you call that?

Oh, and if I used the word wrong, how does that mean that from now on, and without warning, the word "reality", has now been redefined? And then who's is pretending to be "winning" the argument? Since I was the one who said it, I guess you mean me? Well, that's just so Baha'i of you. Sorry that I'm not as smart and as well educated as you. But, like my hero Charlie Sheen, as long as I'm "winning". I know, in reality, he and I are only pretending to win. So congratulations, in true reality, you win.

Wow, there's so much there that I not only don't know how to respond but I'm not even sure how to begin!

So I won't.

But what I can do in reaction to your excellent letter is offer some thoughts off the top of my head & promise to delve more deeply as time permits.

There are so many kinds of Baha'is & so many kinds of Christians, my take is that we're all on the same page & working together to look into it. I've found many Christians that take that tack too but while there are some Christians that will decide that I'm deluded & seduced by Satan there are some Baha'is who'll assume the same position.

They're both wrong (mho) but I really don't want to shake the idea that humans are good & there's a lot of important & satisfying work we can do.

That question of whether Satan exists is terrific & I'd love to share my approach. While some Baha'is & some Christians will insist that Satan does not exist, there will be others on both sides who'll take the opposite view. The thing is that when u get right down to it there are a lot of things that don't exist that are a serious problem & we have to spend a LOT of time working w/ them. Lighting specialists fight w/ shadows & how to eliminate them but shadows aren't there. We just talking about where light isn't. In my mech engineering days I contended w/ centrifugal force having to design in constraints sized and reinforced --the force does not exist. I've even heard it argued that poverty doesn't exist ---like, a poor person can't come into the room, give away all his poverty, and walk out a rich man.

See what I'm saying? Existance just isn't what it's cranked up to be.

 

[Sandra Jayne]

Considering 99.9 percent of species that were ever allegedly created are now extinct, if this so called creator of the physical realm was indifferent to them what are the chances its indifferent to us?


Although there is no doubt hypocrisy there, the trouble with war is that it can clap with one hand. In other words if someone is hell bent on destruction they can still destroy without any opposing faction to keep them in check. So these wars will continue to be fought until the underlying hypocrisy of the aggressors is exposed and their own people rise up to overthrow them.


I wouldn't equate the US with its underdeveloped health system with the rest of the developed world. Also cite your sources please.


World war 1 and 2 has already passed and no supernatural intervention that I'm aware of shortened it. It has only been the exertions of human peacemakers combined with aggressors being defeated that has allowed improvement in the arena of human peace.

Considering 99.9 percent of species that were ever allegedly created are now extinct, if this so called creator of the physical realm was indifferent to them what are the chances its indifferent to us?

Because they were not made in God's 'image'.

I wouldn't equate the US with its underdeveloped health system with the rest of the developed world. Also cite your sources please.

Suicide and self-harm is increasing particularly among teenagers and even children as young as 10yrs old.
Emergency Department Visit Trends for Self-inflicted Injuries Among US Youth, 2001-2015
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr69/nvsr-69-11-508.pdf
Self-harm, suicide attempts climb among U.S. girls, study says - STAT

Would not have expected supernatural intervention to have shortened the world wars, not sure if dropping atomic bombs was carried out by peacemakers.
Revelations chapter's 16 and 19 make it quite clear that in the final battle all the kings of all the nations will be gathered together to do battle against God Almighty. It is not predicted that it will be a war between nations or ideologies but a battle against God.