Truth: either God exists or He don't.

[37818]

Matter and space-time do not always have a cause and effect, this is not proven at all, it is only stated. Events that occur on the quantum level do not appear to have a cause and effect.

Matter in space-time only has a cause if there is an effect.

You also failed to define "nothing".

Well, It would seem you refuse to hear it, I guess, because you do not believe in any kind of nothing, that is, not anything of anything. What part of no cause has no effect do you not understand?

 

[Trailblazer]

It is my understanding, Christianity has more sects than any other faith system. That is because there are more counterfeits claiming to be Christianity. The genuine Christians know God through His Christ. And agree on the essentials of the faith. The counterfeits do not know God and believe in a faith plus supposed needed works in order to be accepted by God, the God which they do not know.

I hope you realize that the 'other Christians' you say are not genuine Christians say the same thing about you not being a genuine Christian. Do you understand why that presents a logical problem, since you are all reading from the same Bible? Who is to say that other Christians are not genuine, or that they do not know God?

So you do not believe that works are needed? What about these verses?

Matthew 25:35-45 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Matter in space-time only has a cause if there is an effect.

You would need to support that claim with evidence. If an event occurs without an apparent effect you would need to explain why that does not need a cause.

Well, It would seem you refuse to hear it, I guess, because you do not believe in any kind of nothing, that is, not anything of anything. What part of no cause has no effect do you not understand?

No, I am willing to listen. Please do not project. And I am not the one without understanding. I can name events without a "cause". Don't accuse others of no understanding when the lack of understanding appears to be on your part.

 

[37818]

No, I am not going to justify my former belief to you since there are countless versions of Christianity and it is too easy for one Christian to deny that another Christian is one.

Does not change that you have or had some kind of belief as to how to become a Christian. Not answering that question is an answer. Yes, there are more sects of Christianity than any other belief system.

My argument is genuine Christians actually know God.
And that there is gospel of Christ by which one becomes such a Christian.

And you argument fails. You cannot just claim to "know God". If you know God you can do more than just claim it. It appears to me that you do not "know" that your God exists. You only believe it. If you claim to know that God exists that puts a burden of proof upon you. If you cannot support your claim it is obvious to everyone else that all that you have is mere belief.

That God exists is in my personal view nonsense. Existence needs no proof, where anyone presents proof that God exists. to quote atheist Ayn Rand, "existence exists."

Now God has an identity. God is the reality which has no beginning and no end. Omnipresent, therefore, everywhere and so invisible. God is the uncaused existence in which all other existing things exist. So to deny God one must deny God is God.

 

[dybmh]

If you were to explain to another person how one is to become a Christian, what would you explain?

Just taking a guess...

Indwelling in Christ?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Does not change that you have or had some kind of belief as to how to become a Christian. Not answering that question is an answer. Yes, there are more sects of Christianity than any other belief system.

My argument is genuine Christians actually know God.
And that there is gospel of Christ by which one becomes such a Christian.


That God exists is in my personal view nonsense. Existence needs no proof, where anyone presents proof that God exists. to quote atheist Ayn Rand, "existence exists."

Now God has an identity. God is the reality which has no beginning and no end. Omnipresent, therefore, everywhere and so invisible. God is the uncaused existence in which all other existing things exist. So to deny God one must deny God is God.

Claims need proof. There appears to be no valid reason to believe in a god. And no, just claiming that a god exists does not give it identity. And you are confused. There is no need to "deny God". That is the error of the believer. The believer has a burden of proof that there is a god to deny in the first place. If one wants to approach this from a logical perspective one starts with the Null Hypothesis. It is essentially a lack of belief until evidence is supplied for a claim. Do I deny the Loch Ness Monster? No need. No one has met the burden of proof of its existence.

 

[37818]

. . . note this is not "testing God" it is only testing his existence.

You are correct there is to be no "testing God." But "only testing for His existence is effectively denying God is God.
God being the infinite, invisible omnipresent reality in which all existent things exist. Not the universe, not the space-time, but the reality in which all existent things exist in. To quote in part the Christian Apostle Paul, " In Him we live and move and have our being . . . ."

 

[Subduction Zone]

You are correct there is to be no "testing God." But "only testing for His existence is effectively denying God is God.
God being the infinite, invisible omnipresent reality in which all existent things exist. Not the universe, not the space-time, but the reality in which all existent things exist in. To quote in part the Christian Apostle Paul, " In Him we live and move and have our being . . . ."

Sorry, but that apologetic does not fly. You are assuming that a god exists. You don't get to do that.

 

[37818]

Just taking a guess...

Indwelling in Christ?

How would one do that?

 

[37818]

Sorry, but that apologetic does not fly. You are assuming that a god exists. You don't get to do that.

No. my presupposition is God is the uncaused Existence.
Big difference. So to deny God is to deny God is God, which you are doing.

 

[37818]

That still does not define what it means to be a cause. So, *why* does every event need a cause?

Events are effects. By definition an effect has a cause.

 

[Subduction Zone]

No. my presupposition is God is the uncaused Existence.
Big difference. So to deny God is to deny God is God, which you are doing.

And your presupposition needs to be justified. A presupposition without general agreement is most likely an erroneous belief that one cannot justify.

And no, I am only denying your indefensible presupposition. Try again.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Events are effects. By definition an effect has a cause.

Nope. That is a claim, it is not an argument. Examples were given. Now there may be a "cause" but none has been found. If you want to claim that there is a cause then the burden of proof is upon you. What can be said is that there is no known cause for some effects. There never was a "law of cause and effect".

 

[dybmh]

How would one do that?

Giving up one's life and being born again?

 

[37818]

How do you know?

A presuppostion is accepted as true that is why it is a presupposition. Without proof. Show it is false. Just reject it without proof based on your presupposition, what ever it is.

How do you know?

It is what I understand to be the case. Show me matter without space and without time. Matter without space and time does not exist. E = m c^2

Once again, please define what you mean by the term 'cause'.

Learn to speak English.
For example: That which acts, happens, or exists in such a way that some specific thing happens as a result.

How do you know?

You have made a number of blatant assertions, but have given no reason to think they are true.

Let's start by defining what it means to be a 'cause'. What do YOU mean when you say that 'A' is a/the cause of 'B'?

Too abstract. A has an effect B.

 

[37818]

Nope. That is a claim, it is not an argument. Examples were given. Now there may be a "cause" but none has been found. If you want to claim that there is a cause then the burden of proof is upon you. What can be said is that there is no known cause for some effects. There never was a "law of cause and effect".

I have provided arguments which you simply reject. There seems to be no answering you. We are going in circles. I will just assume you are too smart for me.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I have provided arguments which you simply reject. There seems to be no answering you. We are going in circles. I will just assume you are too smart for me.

Poor arguments because you assume facts not in evidence.

Do you realize that there is no "law of cause and effect" in the sciences? It is an incorrect assumption that many make. I will grant that it is almost an instinctual feeling, but the quantum world does not care for our feelings at all. That sort of prejudice is one factor that makes it difficult for many to understand quantum mechanics. I still want there to be a "cause" but have to admit that in some cases it cannot be found. Perhaps this will help:

Quantum Diaries

 

[Polymath257]

It is what I understand to be the case. Show me matter without space and without time. Matter without space and time does not exist. E = m c^2

I think the equation doesn't mean what you think it does.

Learn to speak English.
For example: That which acts, happens, or exists in such a way that some specific thing happens as a result.

OK, that gets us started. In what way is something else a 'result'? Why does every event have such a cause?

Too abstract. A has an effect B.

How do you tell if an event is such an effect?

 

[Polymath257]

I have provided arguments which you simply reject. There seems to be no answering you. We are going in circles. I will just assume you are too smart for me.

You haven't given arguments. You have made claims, but not justified them.

Want to try again?

 

[37818]

Giving up one's life and being born again?

And as you understand that, how would one do that?

 

[dybmh]

And as you understand that, how would one do that?

Ok. I'm stumped after that.