Truth: either God exists or He don't.

[Subduction Zone]

The best way is to grab a Christian and threaten to kill him if he doesn't renounce his faith in Christ. That always separates the men from the boys.

Hardly a test. Unfortunately since when one does not know how to properly test one's beliefs one does not have reliable evidence for one's beliefs. All one has is wishful thinking.

 

[Polymath257]

One of my presuppositions is an event has a cause. Another presupposition I have is there is One Uncaused Cause which is the Son of God, aka as the Word. Which, as far as I know, you have no basis to accept.

That still does not define what it means to be a cause. So, *why* does every event need a cause?

 

[Polymath257]

You have some different presuppositions from me. It is my understanding that quantum fluctuations are contingent on matter and space-time, which means to have a quantum fluctuation there is a causal relationship to matter and space time. Something moves, aka a fluctuation.

No, the fluctuation is a description of particle/antiparticle pairs being spontaneously formed and annihilating again. Space and time are NOT 'causes' of this.

 

[37818]

This is merely an exercise in confirmation bias on your part. The question is how would you reliably test your beliefs?

There are two tests. Which are around the gospel of Christ. Those who do not believe it are also unable to explain what and why a genuine Christian understand that gospel of Christ is true.

One test question for you. This question does not matter if you are a believer or not. If you are not a believer you will not understand the answer you are giving, so typically will be not fully correct Many believers, by the way, often give an incomplete simple answer. Not uncommon. So usually a secone or third question is need to understand what is meant by the first answer given.

Here is the base question: If you were to explain to another person how one is to become a Christian, what would you explain?

 

[37818]

That still does not define what it means to be a cause. So, *why* does every event need a cause?

Nothing does not cause anything - no event has no cause. It is a matter of logic.

Again, so it is one of my presuppositions, that events have a cause.

 

[Subduction Zone]

There are two tests. Which are around the gospel of Christ. Those who do not believe it are also unable to explain what and why a genuine Christian understand that gospel of Christ is true.

One test question for you. This question does not matter if you are a believer or not. If you are not a believer you will not understand the answer you are giving, so typically will be not fully correct Many believers, by the way, often give an incomplete simple answer. Not uncommon. So usually a secone or third question is need to understand what is meant by the first answer given.

Here is the base question: If you were to explain to another person how one is to become a Christian, what would you explain?

Not a proper test. It only relies on confirmation bias and has nothing to do with whether an idea is correct or not. Worse yet you have an unjustified assumption in your test. It fails miserably.

A real test has clear goals for what is a pass and what is a fail. Without a reliable way to test one's beliefs one cannot have rational belief.

Is your faith strong enough to test it properly?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Nothing does not cause anything - no event has no cause. It is a matter of logic.

Again, so it is one of my presuppositions, that events have a cause.

You need to define what you mean by "nothing". The fact that matter exists means that we are not talking about "nothing". Events can be uncaused in the universe.

 

[37818]

No, the fluctuation is a description of particle/antiparticle pairs being spontaneously formed and annihilating again. Space and time are NOT 'causes' of this.

In order to observe this requires the presence of other matter. What is observed is supposed to be spontaneous. But it only happens in the presence of other matter. There is no evidence that this happens not in the presence of matter. Show or explain the experiement which does not use anything to detect the matter and antimatter pair.

 

[37818]

No, the fluctuation is a description of particle/antiparticle pairs being spontaneously formed and annihilating again. Space and time are NOT 'causes' of this.

No such events take place out side of space-time. If there is matter there is always space-time.

 

[37818]

Not a proper test. It only relies on confirmation bias and has nothing to do with whether an idea is correct or not. Worse yet you have an unjustified assumption in your test. It fails miserably.

A real test has clear goals for what is a pass and what is a fail. Without a reliable way to test one's beliefs one cannot have rational belief.

Is your faith strong enough to test it properly?

You have something in mind. I cannot just guess.

For the rececord, I have never heard any even ex-Christian convence me that were genuine Christians. In other words there has aways been some key disagreement on how one becomes a Christian.

And one of the reasons I "remain a Christian," is persoally my self knowing, I know God. If one actually knows, that is, to have met someone, one cannot honestly say one did not. Understand? If one understands 1 + 1 = 2 can one no longer udnerstand that, short of brain damage?

 

[Samael_Khan]

Nobody is in the lake of fire yet. The dead are currently in Sheol, they will all be raised up on judgement day and the unbelievers will became instant believers when the truth about their eternal destiny sinks in. But it will be far too late to change anything then. You can avoid hell right now, just swallow your pride and repent and Jesus will save you. He never turns anyone away, no matter how far someone has sunk into depravity.
The offer is only available while a person lives, if someone dies in their sins they are sealed and there's no more chances at that point. It's just not worth the gamble.

Depends. I mean you and I could dodge hellfire if repent now, revert to Islam by believing that Muhammed is the final messenger, and be saved from worshipping creation as God. Because, as the muslims say, all are born believing in Allah. That is why we would become reverts and not concerts. Same logic as you.

See? Multiple options.

Should I just crap shoot and choose a religion dependent on what the dice says? Which religion should I gamble on here? Should I go back to being a JW because they might be right? Maybe a 7th Day Adventist? Should I go back to joining the Catholic Church?

So many options. none of them give me conclusive evidence to follow.

 

[37818]

You need to define what you mean by "nothing". The fact that matter exists means that we are not talking about "nothing". Events can be uncaused in the universe.

Nothing, not anything, The presupposition, no cause, no event. One cannot have space time without matter. One cannot have matter without space-time. Matter and space-time always has a cause and effect. An event is an effect.

 

[Polymath257]

In order to observe this requires the presence of other matter. What is observed is supposed to be spontaneous. But it only happens in the presence of other matter. There is no evidence that this happens not in the presence of matter. Show or explain the experiement which does not use anything to detect the matter and antimatter pair.

That would be nonsense. Detection requires something to detect.

But that does NOT mean causality.

No such events take place out side of space-time. If there is matter there is always space-time.

But that does not imply causality.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You have something in mind. I cannot just guess.

For the rececord, I have never heard any even ex-Christian convence me that were genuine Christians. In other words there has aways been some key disagreement on how one becomes a Christian.

And one of the reasons I "remain a Christian," is persoally my self knowing, I know God. If one actually knows, that is, to have met someone, one cannot honestly say one did not. Understand? If one understands 1 + 1 = 2 can one no longer udnerstand that, short of brain damage?

Aah, yes, the good old "No true Scotsman fallacy". Unfortunately by those standards you are not a Christian either. Are you sure that you want to do that?


By the way, knowledge is demonstrable. No Christian has ever demonstrated that they know God, they have only claimed it.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Nothing, not anything, The presupposition, no cause, no event. One cannot have space time without matter. One cannot have matter without space-time. Matter and space-time always has a cause and effect. An event is an effect.

Matter and space-time do not always have a cause and effect, this is not proven at all, it is only stated. Events that occur on the quantum level do not appear to have a cause and effect.

You also failed to define "nothing".

 

[Polymath257]

Nothing, not anything, The presupposition, no cause, no event. One cannot have space time without matter.

How do you know?

One cannot have matter without space-time.

How do you know?

Matter and space-time always has a cause and effect.

Once again, please define what you mean by the term 'cause'.

An event is an effect.

How do you know?

You have made a number of blatant assertions, but have given no reason to think they are true.

Let's start by defining what it means to be a 'cause'. What do YOU mean when you say that 'A' is a/the cause of 'B'?

 

[37818]

That would be nonsense. Detection requires something to detect.

But that does NOT mean causality.

What you are arguing makes no sense. Why does a detection rule out any kind of causality? How can one have any kind of detection if there is nothing to detect?

But that does not imply causality.

Again, all events take place in space-time. Events are caused.

So far we have gone back and forth. Events are effects. Effects always have a cause.

 

[37818]

Aah, yes, the good old "No true Scotsman fallacy". Unfortunately by those standards you are not a Christian either. Are you sure that you want to do that?

Whether we agree or not. You do have some kind of idea as to how one becomes a Christian. So on that basis, if you were to explain to someone how to become a Christian what would you explain?

By the way, knowledge is demonstrable. No Christian has ever demonstrated that they know God, they have only claimed it.

There is a how to what anyone claims to know.

How I know God, you can know God too. My argument is all genuine Christians know God. The problem, generally Christians do not use that as an argument. The basis for that argument is found in the Christian New Testament along with a how to do for you.

Here is a the problem. If you do anything without any witness other than yourself, how do you prove it to another person? If you have the witness of knowing God, it is a witness to you not others that you do. Except you show some kind of life change or behavor that others might notice. But what does directly prove is that change.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Whether we agree or not. You do have some kind of idea as to how one becomes a Christian. So on that basis, if you were to explain to someone how to become a Christian what would you explain?
There is a how to what anyone claims to know.

How I know God, you can know God too. My argument is all genuine Christians know God. The problem, generally Christians do not use that as an argument. The basis for that argument is found in the Christian New Testament along with a how to do for you.

Here is a the problem. If you do anything without any witness other than yourself, how do you prove it to another person? If you have the witness of knowing God, it is a witness to you not others that you do. Except you show some kind of life change or behavor that other might notice. But that does directly proves is that change.

No, I am not going to justify my former belief to you since there are countless versions of Christianity and it is too easy for one Christian to deny that another Christian is one.

And you argument fails. You cannot just claim to "know God". If you know God you can do more than just claim it. It appears to me that you do not "know" that your God exists. You only believe it. If you claim to know that God exists that puts a burden of proof upon you. If you cannot support your claim it is obvious to everyone else that all that you have is mere belief.

Now as to prove that you did something without a witness that depends upon what you did. If a person invented something even without a witness there will be evidence usually of that work, notes, parts, non-working examples etc.. One will also understand what was made better than most. This does not help God believers since quite often those that understand a religion the best appear to be nonbelievers.

Here is a challenge that believers in God never seem to be able to accomplish: Develop a reasonable, rational test for the existence of your God. Please note this is not "testing God" it is only testing his existence.

 

[Trailblazer]

What basis is such a writing even true?

The "basis" that it is true is that it was written by Baha'u'llah, a Manifestation of God who had knowledge from God. He also knew all that Jesus experienced better than the gospel writers since He was the same Spirit of Jesus. Thus at one time He said He longed for the cross.

There are two issues here. What do you understand "Essence" to mean? It sounds like you think no one can even have a clue.
I understand Essence to mean what God is in Essence, which I understand to mean to be a Spirit, which my Jesus taught, "God is Spirit."

You raise a good point. What I mean by Essence is the intrinsic nature of God. I agree that we can know God is Spirit because the Bible says that but we cannot know any more about God's nature than that. By contrast, we can know some of God's Attributes such as Good, Loving, Gracious, Merciful, Just, Righteous, Forgiving, and Patient because they were reflected in Jesus.

Jesus was a clear mirror, and God became visible in the mirror. This is why Jesus said, “The Father is in the Son” (John 14:11, John 17:21) meaning that God is visible and manifest in Jesus.

“I and my Father are one” (John 10:30) means that the Manifestation of God, in this case Jesus, and God are one and the same, so whatever pertains to the Manifestation of God, all His acts and doings, as well as whatever He ordains and forbids, is identical with the Will of God Himself.

1 Timothy 3:16 King James Version (KJV)

16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.