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Why Didn't God Leave Huge Quantities of Secular Evidence For Jesus?

joelr

Well-Known Member
Statistically, there is no way that man can predict the future with 100-percent accuracy Who is the only one who can do this?God. Only God could know the future. The book of MIcah (5:2) tells us that the Messiah will be born in Bethlehem-not in Jerusalem, Atlanta, or New York. And Jesus was born in Bethlehem (Luke 2:4-7). The Book of Zechariah (11:12, 13), says that this Messiah will be betrayed for thirty pieces of silver. Jesus was betrayed for thirty pieces of silver (Matthew 26:15).


But the gospels are fiction. Made up stories using the OT and older literature.
They are written exactly like all fiction was written in the day. They do not even claim to be eyewitnesses.
This article goes over many of the literary styles used in myths and how Mark used them and shows some of the OT narratives he used. Obviously the messiah stories came true this is what the gospels were written to be. They are still fiction. All of the wisdom were ideas already being taught by modern Jewish sects.
The Gospels as Allegorical Myth, Part I of 4: Mark

"First of all, before even identifying or examining these literary constructs, allegories, and prospective elements of myth, we can already see by reading the Gospels that they fail to show any substantive content of being actual researched histories. Nowhere in the Gospels do they ever name their sources of information, nor do they read as eye witness testimonies (nor do they identify themselves as such), nor is it mentioned why any sources used would be accurate to rely upon. The authors never discuss any historical method used, nor do they acknowledge how some contents may be less accurate than others, nor do they mention alternate possibilities of the events given the limited information they had from their sources. They never express amazement or any degree of rational skepticism no matter how implausible an event within the story may be — something we would expect from any rational historian (even one living in antiquity). The authors never explain why they changed what their sources said, nor do they even acknowledge that they did such a thing in the first place — despite the fact that Matthew and Luke clearly relied on Mark as a source (as did John, though less obviously so), for example, and then they all redacted Mark’s version as needed to serve their own literary and theological purposes (which explains some of the contradictions found between one Gospel and another). Instead, the Gospels appear to be fictional historical biographies, likely written by specially interested Christians whose intent was to edify Jesus, just like many other fictional historical biographies that were made for various heroes and sages in antiquity. In fact, all students of literary Greek (the authors of the Gospels wrote their manuscripts in literary Greek), commonly used this fictional biographical technique as a popular rhetorical device — where they were taught to invent narratives about famous and legendary people, as well as to build a symbolic or moral message within it, and where they were taught to make changes to traditional stories in order to make whatever point they desired within their own stories."
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Jesus promised that every Christian, would suffer persecution and many would be executed for the faith in Him.

I'm not sure where you got your information, regarding martyrs, but the Bible (God's Word) tells us that all the apostles were executed except for John who escaped.

There's also the conservative estimate of 50 million Christians being burned and beheaded by the Vatican.

Our world view is shaped by who we believe in, God said that the heart of man is wicked above all things. So I refuse to put my faith in the most wicked of all things, I prefer to put my faith in God who is the most righteous of all.
Then Jesus was wrong because that has not happened. And where do you get your supposed 50 million Christians killed by other Christians come from? Please no apologist sites since they tend to be written by Liars for Jesus.

And no, the Bible does not claim that all of the apostles died in such a manner. I can guarantee you will not find it in their. And with all of the errors in the Bible how can you say that it is the "word of God"? That is rather blasphemous to say the least.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Many parallels with dying and rising gods and Jesus are exaggerated. That parallel could be a coincidence. The story of Harry Potter involves Harry being threatened by Voldemort and hidden but that doesn't mean that it's based off of the Bible. Is Jesus a myth? Is Jesus just a copy of the pagan gods of other ancient religions? | GotQuestions.org


Once agin, unsourced article debunking Zeitgeist? No author either? Why don't you actually explore what experts have to say why rely just on amateur writers?

As real historians have been saying Zeitgeist was taken from author D. M. Murdock. They consider her work to be innacurate and not reliable. Horus and Mithras are not good examples of dying rising gods.

There are many examples however and PhD Carrier touches on them here:
https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/13890

There is a common meme in ancient religions in the Middel East of savior gods and a sub-meme of dying/rising savior gods. Carrier details the difference as well.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Once agin, unsourced article debunking Zeitgeist? No author either? Why don't you actually explore what experts have to say why rely just on amateur writers?

As real historians have been saying Zeitgeist was taken from author D. M. Murdock. They consider her work to be innacurate and not reliable. Horus and Mithras are not good examples of dying rising gods.

There are many examples however and PhD Carrier touches on them here:
Dying-and-Rising Gods: It's Pagan, Guys. Get Over It. • Richard Carrier

There is a common meme in ancient religions in the Middel East of savior gods and a sub-meme of dying/rising savior gods. Carrier details the difference as well.
He loves the Christian apologists even though it has been explained to him how they are just liars for Jesus.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
What evidence is that that Christians made up the stories to fit the prophecies? That Christian beliefs are similar to Jewish beliefs, regarding the second coming of the Messiah, shows that their beliefs are scriptural enough not to be fabrications.

Well first the early OT is mostly myths taken from older cultures and re-worked. The Torah laws are extremely similar to most societies at the time in the region, no different or more progressive (
Joshua Bowen Phd near eastern studies confirms this in his work). The Persian influence and all the Pagan dying-rising savior gods were popular and Judaism needed upgrading.
The gospels fit that bill, are anonymous, scholarship believes the others copied Mark especially Matthew with 97% of the original Greek from Mark.
All the stories are wildly fictitious with mythic stories, improbable events and mundane run of the mill miracles and godman miracles.
No extra-biblical evidence either. This looks incredibly like any other religion. Obviously you believe Krishna and Hinduism, even though worshipped by billions is still not a real story? Same goes here.

Also take any gospel, Luke, Luke takes OT narratives and transforms them line by line to make new stories about Jesus. Jesus was written to be the new Moses and Elija and all that. These stories are made up.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
@Pilgrim Soldier , the only apostle's death recorded in the Bible was that of James in Acts 12 2. Well, the death of Judas is recorded too. None of the deaths of others are given.

One has to go to church tradition, Catholic Church tradition, for the deaths of the rest.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
I can't think of a better test than, bringing a dead person back to life so that's what I consider to be the ultimate test.

Every religion has people who temporarily die and are recesetated. Hindu, Islam, Mormon, Sikh. To them it's proof that they are in the correct religion. This also happens to secular people and they say they got lucky. So this is not evidence at all for any specific God. It's evidence that people can survive serious trauma.

When Krishna, or some God shows up and says he is going to raise someone who was dead for a long time, goes to a cemmetary and magically brings a skeleton up and reconstitutes it, on film, with news crews then that might be something interesting.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
All I know is, I was dead but now I'm alive, God never explained how He raises the dead to life. Even if He did explain His technique, I doubt that any human could comprehend it.

Some parts are left out of this story. Did you literally die in a hospital? Or is this a metaphorical death?
 

Pilgrim Soldier

Active Member
Then Jesus was wrong because that has not happened. And where do you get your supposed 50 million Christians killed by other Christians come from? Please no apologist sites since they tend to be written by Liars for Jesus.

And no, the Bible does not claim that all of the apostles died in such a manner. I can guarantee you will not find it in their. And with all of the errors in the Bible how can you say that it is the "word of God"? That is rather blasphemous to say the least.
There are millions of Christians willing to give you their houses if you can find a single error or contradiction or false claim in the Bible.
I guess it all comes down to who we put our faith in, I know CNN, NBC and Oprah Winfrey won't tell you the statistics. You ,may need to look outside of the mainstream media
 

Pilgrim Soldier

Active Member
@Pilgrim Soldier , the only apostle's death recorded in the Bible was that of James in Acts 12 2. Well, the death of Judas is recorded too. None of the deaths of others are given.

One has to go to church tradition, Catholic Church tradition, for the deaths of the rest.
The Bible says that Peter requested that he be crucified up side down, as he didn't count himself worthy of being crucified the same way as Christ. You may have missed that one
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
There are millions of Christians willing to give you their houses if you can find a single error or contradiction or false claim in the Bible.
I guess it all comes down to who we put our faith in, I know CNN, NBC and Oprah Winfrey won't tell you the statistics. You ,may need to look outside of the mainstream media
Nope, they lie. They do not accept the errors or contradictions when pointed out to them.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
The Bible says that Peter requested that he be crucified up side down, as he didn't count himself worthy of being crucified the same way as Christ. You may have missed that one
Nope. It does not. In fact that story did not appear until the second or century CE.

Find it and I will admit that I am wrong.

By the way, why did you not admit your error?
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
I must disagree with you there. All those people are not believing on the basis of evidence. They're believing because they were conditioned to, when they were children who are born with an in-built need, based on survival, to believe unquestioningly what their parents tell them.

I'm teaching my 5-year old actually not to blindly believe whatever figures of authority tell him - including myself. But instead, to ask questions and think things through.

He's actually becoming quite good at it. Sometimes, I'll tell him some bs story and he'll look at me funny and call it out for the bs that it is. :)


Ironically though, he's accepting those "life lessons" blindly from me as I am his parent. Hahaha.
There is no escaping your genes, right....

Anyhow, I'm making a point of it in my children's upbringing that they learn to think for themselves and not fall prey to bs-ters, con-men and those with false or bad intentions.

Gotta admit, that's the oddest answer I think I've seen to that sort of question.

I know, right...
 

Pilgrim Soldier

Active Member
Every religion has people who temporarily die and are recesetated. Hindu, Islam, Mormon, Sikh. To them it's proof that they are in the correct religion. This also happens to secular people and they say they got lucky. So this is not evidence at all for any specific God. It's evidence that people can survive serious trauma.

When Krishna, or some God shows up and says he is going to raise someone who was dead for a long time, goes to a cemmetary and magically brings a skeleton up and reconstitutes it, on film, with news crews then that might be something interesting.
It sounds like you need to see proof, the sad thing is God said He wouldn't give any proof. So God refuses to give unbelievers the proof they demand, He actually promised to blind the unbelievers so they wouldn't find the proof they need to believe.
It sounds to me that it's an invitation only deal.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
It sounds like you need to see proof, the sad thing is God said He wouldn't give any proof. So God refuses to give unbelievers the proof they demand, He actually promised to blind the unbelievers so they wouldn't find the proof they need to believe.
It sounds to me that it's an invitation only deal.
I see. You are saying that your god is immoral.
 

Pilgrim Soldier

Active Member
Nope. It does not. In fact that story did not appear until the second or century CE.

Find it and I will admit that I am wrong.

By the way, why did you not admit your error?
We have historical records to prove that all of the apostles except for John were executed, and Crucifixion was the method of execution in their time.
They were all executed after Christ ascended to heaven, so the records and method of deaths wasn't added to the Bible as the canon of scripture was closed after Christ ascended back to heaven. But just because the Church fathers didn't add their deaths to the Bible doesn't mean they never happened.
The Bible is concerned with the salvation of lost sinners, it's not meant to be a book which tells the story of every Christian martyr.
I don't know which error you're referring to, I don't remember making any.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Well first the early OT is mostly myths taken from older cultures and re-worked. The Torah laws are extremely similar to most societies at the time in the region, no different or more progressive (
Joshua Bowen Phd near eastern studies confirms this in his work). The Persian influence and all the Pagan dying-rising savior gods were popular and Judaism needed upgrading.
The gospels fit that bill, are anonymous, scholarship believes the others copied Mark especially Matthew with 97% of the original Greek from Mark.
All the stories are wildly fictitious with mythic stories, improbable events and mundane run of the mill miracles and godman miracles.
No extra-biblical evidence either. This looks incredibly like any other religion. Obviously you believe Krishna and Hinduism, even though worshipped by billions is still not a real story? Same goes here.

Also take any gospel, Luke, Luke takes OT narratives and transforms them line by line to make new stories about Jesus. Jesus was written to be the new Moses and Elija and all that. These stories are made up.

Certain Zoroastrian writings that seem similar to Christianity came from after the Bible. The Torah was similar to other societies because God's rules are universal. There are parallels with dying and rising gods that don't really exist. Jesus Vs Mithra – Debunking The Alleged Parallels | Reasons for Jesus

8. His resurrection was celebrated every year.


I have to classify these two as “ringers” — I see no references anywhere in the Mithraic studies literature to Mithra being buried, or even dying, for that matter [Gordon says directly, that there is “no death of Mithras” — Gor.III, 96] and so of course no rising again and no “resurrection” (in a Jewish sense?!) to celebrate. Freke and Gandy [Frek.JM, 56] claim that the Mithraic initiates “enacted a similar resurrection scene”, but their only reference is to a comment by Tertullian, significantly after New Testament times!

Tekton Research Assistant Punkish adds: The footnote is for Tertullian’s Prescription Against Heretics, chapter 40 which says, “if my memory still serves me, Mithra there (in the kingdom of Satan), sets his marks on the foreheads of his soldiers; celebrates also the oblation of bread, and introduces an image of a resurrection, and before a sword wreathes a crown”…so their argument relies on Tertullian’s memory, and it isn’t the initiates but Mithra who does the celebrating and introduces an *image* of a resurrection! How is that at all related to initiates acting out a scene?

Wynne-Tyson [Wyn.MFC, 24; cf. Ver.MSG, 38] also refers to a church writer of the fourth century, Firmicus, who says that the Mithraists mourn the image of a dead Mithras — still way too late! — but after reading the work of Firmicus, I find no such reference at all.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
We have historical records to prove that all of the apostles except for John were executed, and Crucifixion was the method of execution in their time.
They were all executed after Christ ascended to heaven, so the records and method of deaths wasn't added to the Bible as the canon of scripture was closed after Christ ascended back to heaven. But just because the Church fathers didn't add their deaths to the Bible doesn't mean they never happened.
The Bible is concerned with the salvation of lost sinners, it's not meant to be a book which tells the story of every Christian martyr.
I don't know which error you're referring to, I don't remember making any.
No, we really do not. It is time for you to put up or shut up. You have made incorrect statements about the deaths being in the Bible and others and have not owned up to your errors when shown to be wrong.

Where are these "historical records"? Trust me, I have looked into this. No one has ever been able to support those claims to date.
 
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