Is according to Jews everything God's will?

[Skywalker]

I am utterly uninterested in anything the NT or the Quran have to say about a Messiah, since the Christian and Muslim concepts of a messiah are utterly foreign to the Tanakh teaching.

The early Christians followed the Tanakh and didn't just follow Judaism but they also believed in the Christian concept of the Messiah. Their interpretations of the Tanakh were different from the interpretations of the Jewish people who didn't believe in Christ. Jewish Christian - Wikipedia

Jewish sects
During the early first century CE there were many competing Jewish sects in the Holy Land, and those that became Rabbinic Judaism and Proto-orthodox Christianity were but two of these. There were Pharisees, Sadducees, and Zealots, but also other less influential sects, including the Essenes.[ The first century BCE and first century CE saw a growing number of charismatic religious leaders contributing to what would become the Mishnah of Rabbinic Judaism; the ministry of Jesus would lead to the emergence of the first Jewish Christian community.

Although the gospels contain strong condemnations of the Pharisees, Paul the Apostle claimed to have been a Pharisee, and there is a clear influence of Hillel's interpretation of the Torah in the Gospel-sayings.[Belief in the resurrection of the dead in the messianic age was a core Pharisaic doctrine.

Messiah in Judaism - Wikipedia

Jewish messianism gave birth to Christianity, which started as a Second Temple Period messianic Jewish sect.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The early Christians followed the Tanakh and didn't just follow Judaism but they also believed in the Christian concept of the Messiah. Their interpretations of the Tanakh were different from the interpretations of the Jewish people who didn't believe in Christ. Jewish Christian - Wikipedia



Messiah in Judaism - Wikipedia

The earliest Christians were a heretical sect of Judaism. That's why they were eventually kicked out of the synagogues.

 

[Skywalker]

The earliest Christians were a heretical sect of Judaism. That's why they were eventually kicked out of the synagogues.

They were more Christian and Jewish because of how today we view Christian and Jewish as different religions due to the Old and New Covenant being distinct. The New Covenant and Old Covenant are practiced apart from each other but that doesn't mean they are mutually exclusive.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

They were more Christian and Jewish because of how today we view Christian and Jewish as different religions due to the Old and New Covenant being distinct. The New Covenant and Old Covenant are practiced apart from each other but that doesn't mean they are mutually exclusive.

They are mutually exclusive for three reasons:
1. In Judaism, God is not a man. In Christianity, God becomes a man.
2. In Judaism, the Messiah becomes the King of Israel, by conquering Israel's enemies, ushers in an era of world peace, and brings about an era of world peace. He does not die for anyone's sins. In Christianity, the Messiah dies for the sins of mankind, and his kingdom was not of this world.
3. In Judaism, the central teaching is "Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole of man." In Christianity this is not so, the main teaching is "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast." These are contradictory messages.

In addition, Christianity had many esoteric interpretations of the prophets. It misinterpreted the prophets, choosing verses that were actually about other things, and saying they were messianic prophecies when they clearly were not. It also mistranslated prophecies. And most unforgivably, it made up some prophecies out of whole cloth.

Based on all this, Christianity is incompatible with Judaism. It rightly was kicked out of the synagogues. Further, when Paul began spreading it to Gentiles en masse, it literally became a separate religion. You cannot call something a Judaism when you don't have Jews (which is true even of Messianic Judaism, which is flooded with non-Jews).

 

[Skywalker]

They are mutually exclusive for three reasons:
1. In Judaism, God is not a man. In Christianity, God becomes a man.
2. In Judaism, the Messiah becomes the King of Israel, by conquering Israel's enemies, ushers in an era of world peace, and brings about an era of world peace. He does not die for anyone's sins. In Christianity, the Messiah dies for the sins of mankind, and his kingdom was not of this world.
3. In Judaism, the central teaching is "Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole of man." In Christianity this is not so, the main teaching is "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast." These are contradictory messages.

In addition, Christianity had many esoteric interpretations of the prophets. It misinterpreted the prophets, choosing verses that were actually about other things, and saying they were messianic prophecies when they clearly were not. It also mistranslated prophecies. And most unforgivably, it made up some prophecies out of whole cloth.

Based on all this, Christianity is incompatible with Judaism. It rightly was kicked out of the synagogues. Further, when Paul began spreading it to Gentiles en masse, it literally became a separate religion. You cannot call something a Judaism when you don't have Jews (which is true even of Messianic Judaism, which is flooded with non-Jews).

So you think that following the Old Covenant and New Covenant putting distinct categories together is wrong? They are not necessarily mutually exclusive categories. The first Christians were Jewish and Christian, not first and foremost Jewish or Christian. It wasn't a separate religion when the Jews believed that Jesus as the Messiah. Judaism means you do Jewish things or have Jewish ancestry or believe in the Tanakh. It doesn't mean that you don't believe in Jesus, even though most Jews today don't believe in Jesus. Fearing God and keeping his commandments doesn't mean that you are saved by good works. The context of the book of Ecclessiasties is about wisdom from the life of King Solomon, not about Jesus. The life lessons of Solomon do not contradict that we are saved by grace not by works.

The Old Testament law allowed conversion to Judaism. Conversion to Judaism - Wikipedia

 

[IndigoChild5559]

So you think that following the Old Covenant and New Covenant putting distinct categories together is wrong?

Christians don't keep the covenant between Israel and God. Most of them don't circumcise, nor do they obey the 613 laws -- they do not eat kosher, they do not keep a seventh day Shabbat, they do not keep family purity laws, etc. Nor do they go to the Levites and judges when a matter arises that is too difficult.

The Old Testament law allowed conversion to Judaism. Conversion to Judaism - Wikipedia

And you may certainly convert to Judaism and become a part of the People of Israel. It requires you to give up your belief in Jesus. Are you willing to do so?

 

[Skywalker]

Christians don't keep the covenant between Israel and God. Most of them don't circumcise, nor do they obey the 613 laws -- they do not eat kosher, they do not keep a seventh day Shabbat, they do not keep family purity laws, etc. Nor do they go to the Levites and judges when a matter arises that is too difficult.


And you may certainly convert to Judaism and become a part of the People of Israel. It requires you to give up your belief in Jesus. Are you willing to do so?

That doesn't mean that to be a Christian you can't do those things. It's possible to follow Christ and the Tanakh. The early Christians followed both the Old and New Testament. Jewish Christian - Wikipedia

Jewish Christians (Hebrew: יהודים נוצרים‎) were the followers of a Jewish religious sect that emerged in Judea during the late Second Temple period (first-century). The sect integrated the belief of Jesus as the prophesied Messiah and his teachings into the Jewish faith, including the observance of the Jewish law. Jewish Christianity is the foundation of Early Christianity, which later developed into Christianity. Christianity started with Jewish eschatological expectations, and it developed into the worship of a deified Jesus after his earthly ministry, his crucifixion, and the post-crucifixion experiences of his followers. Modern scholarship is engaged in an ongoing debate as to the proper designation for Jesus' first followers. Many see the term Jewish Christians as anachronistic given that there is no consensus on the date of the birth of Christianity. Some modern scholars have suggested the designations "Jewish believers in Jesus" or "Jewish followers of Jesus" as better reflecting the original context.

The Book of Acts reports that the early followers continued daily Temple attendance and traditional Jewish home prayer. Other passages in the New Testament gospels reflect a similar observance of traditional Jewish piety such as fasting, reverence for the Torah and observance of Jewish holy days.

The historical division of Christianity and Judaism as different religions is why Jewish Christian is not the best designation for people who followed Jesus and the Old laws. Before there were non-Jewish Christians, people followed both Judaism and Jesus.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

That doesn't mean that to be a Christian you can't do those things. It's possible to follow Christ and the Tanakh. The early Christians followed both the Old and New Testament. Jewish Christian - Wikipedia

The historical division of Christianity and Judaism as different religions is why Jewish Christian is not the best designation for people who followed Jesus and the Old laws. Before there were non-Jewish Christians, people followed both Judaism and Jesus.

This was, as I've said many times, possible for a few decades early on in Christianity, because it was a sect WITHIN Judaism. The Jewish believers in Jesus were JEWS and had no concept of leaving Judaism. Indeed the group under James in Jerusalem were "all zealous for Torah." (Acts 20:21) But that ended FOREVER when this heretical sect was kicked out of the synagogues. There is no ever going back to this possibility now.

Today Christianity is a Gentile faith. The very very few Chrisitans that try to keep the 613 commandments are raked over the coals by other Christians for being "legalistic" and "Judaizers." It's simply not part of Christianity any more. Christians eat pork, mow their lawns on Saturday, have relations with their menstruating wives, and all sorts of stuff.

 

[Skywalker]

This was, as I've said many times, possible for a few decades early on in Christianity, because it was a sect WITHIN Judaism. The Jewish believers in Jesus were JEWS and had no concept of leaving Judaism. Indeed the group under James in Jerusalem were "all zealous for Torah." (Acts 20:21) But that ended FOREVER when this heretical sect was kicked out of the synagogues. There is no ever going back to this possibility now.

Today Christianity is a Gentile faith. The very very few Chrisitans that try to keep the 613 commandments are raked over the coals by other Christians for being "legalistic" and "Judaizers." It's simply not part of Christianity any more. Christians eat pork, mow their lawns on Saturday, have relations with their menstruating wives, and all sorts of stuff.

The fact that Christianity and Judaism were not different faiths before the inclusion of gentiles means that Judaism and Jesus are not mutually exclusive. That Jewish Christians were kicked out of synoagogues is an appeal to tradition. The Catholic traditions about extravagant architecture and praying to Mary show that tradition doesn't necessarily make something of God.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The fact that Christianity and Judaism were not different faiths before the inclusion of gentiles means that Judaism and Jesus are not mutually exclusive. That Jewish Christians were kicked out of synoagogues is an appeal to tradition. The Catholic traditions about extravagant architecture and praying to Mary show that tradition doesn't necessarily make something of God.

Even when Christians were a Jewish sect, they were always heretics. They believed someone to be the Messiah who who had died without fulfilling the messianic prophecies, and had beliefs that were antagonistic to core teachings of Judaism.

 

[Skywalker]

Even when Christians were a Jewish sect, they were always heretics. They believed someone to be the Messiah who who had died without fulfilling the messianic prophecies, and had beliefs that were antagonistic to core teachings of Judaism.

The Pharisees rejected Jesus not because God hadn't provided them sufficient revelation in Scripture and in general revelation. Something else-pride, sin, or hard heartedness-may be obstructing their path.

 

[rosends]

The fact that Christianity and Judaism were not different faiths before the inclusion of gentiles means that Judaism and Jesus are not mutually exclusive. That Jewish Christians were kicked out of synoagogues is an appeal to tradition. The Catholic traditions about extravagant architecture and praying to Mary show that tradition doesn't necessarily make something of God.

This is incorrect. When the new "thing" developed it was viewed as heretical and incompatible with Judaism. So while it existed "within" Judaism, it did so as an unacceptable growth, one which was mutually exclusive when placed next to the rest of Judaism, which is why it was excised from the main. It grew like a cancer, eating away from within, antithetical to the health and well-being of the host.

 

[Skywalker]

This was, as I've said many times, possible for a few decades early on in Christianity, because it was a sect WITHIN Judaism. The Jewish believers in Jesus were JEWS and had no concept of leaving Judaism. Indeed the group under James in Jerusalem were "all zealous for Torah." (Acts 20:21) But that ended FOREVER when this heretical sect was kicked out of the synagogues. There is no ever going back to this possibility now.

Today Christianity is a Gentile faith. The very very few Chrisitans that try to keep the 613 commandments are raked over the coals by other Christians for being "legalistic" and "Judaizers." It's simply not part of Christianity any more. Christians eat pork, mow their lawns on Saturday, have relations with their menstruating wives, and all sorts of stuff.

While it doesn't have to be Jewish because that would be legalism and Judaizers, Hebrew Christians and Messianic Judaism shows that one can be Christian and Jewish. Since the Talmud didn't exist during the time of Abraham and Moses, Jewish Christian groups who don't believe in it are no less Jewish. Not all Jewish Christian groups are Judaizers.

 

[Skywalker]

This is incorrect. When the new "thing" developed it was viewed as heretical and incompatible with Judaism. So while it existed "within" Judaism, it did so as an unacceptable growth, one which was mutually exclusive when placed next to the rest of Judaism, which is why it was excised from the main. It grew like a cancer, eating away from within, antithetical to the health and well-being of the host.

Christianity and Judaism are in complete harmony with each other, apart from the historical division.

 

[rosends]

Christianity and Judaism are in complete harmony with each other, apart from the historical division.

except that they aren't

 

[Skywalker]

except that they aren't

Jesus being born of a virgin is not incompatible with Judaism. It's not a story that someone would make up. Jesus was accused of being born out of wedlock in John 8:41. Did the Jews accuse the Lord of being "born of fornication" (John 8.41)? | Believer's Magazine

 

[rosends]

Jesus being born of a virgin is not incompatible with Judaism. It's not a story that someone would make up. Jesus was accused of being born out of wedlock in John 8:41. Did the Jews accuse the Lord of being "born of fornication" (John 8.41)? | Believer's Magazine

Anyone's claim to Jesus' being born of a virgin is completely non-textual and irrelevant to Judaism. Why bring it up?

 

[Skywalker]

except that they aren't

Eastern Christians don't believe in original sin. Genesis 6:5 says that during the days of the flood, the thoughts of people's hearts were evil continually. Judaism believes in being good. We are all capable of doing but but we all fall short. That's why Jesus became the Messiah.

 

[Skywalker]

Anyone's claim to Jesus' being born of a virgin is completely non-textual and irrelevant to Judaism. Why bring it up?

That's an appeal to tradition. It's also not non textual, because Jesus was not a demigod like Hercules.

 

[rosends]

Eastern Christians don't believe in original sin. Genesis 6:5 says that during the days of the flood, the thoughts of people's hearts were evil continually. Judaism believes in being good. We are all capable of doing but but we all fall short. That's why Jesus became the Messiah.

Hey, look at that! Wonderfully irrelevant. So unexpected!