Bahai's and the Bible. Errant or Inerrant. Holistic or cherry picking?

[firedragon]

Then you agree with Christianity that the Holy Spirit is indeed a person and not an it, and can speak and hear etc.



It is plain that Baha'u'llah has not glorified the Son or exalted His cause. Baha'u'llah pretends to glorify the Son while only exalting himself and standing on the cause of the Son to save people from death and bring them into eternal life, and saying this cause is ended.

I am no Bahai Brian, but I must say that Bahaullah did praise Jesus, if not the word is Glorified. I dont agree with their theology, but in his writing he does.

 

[firedragon]

From Genesis on the Bible tells us humans are all brothers and sisters even if we have disagreements on many things.

I dont agree with that Brian.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Oh yes. I know.

That is why I find it hypocritical when Bahai's try to defend the Bible with the false apologetic "we only accept scholars who are not critical of Christianity", because Bahaullah and all the writers are absolutely critical of Christianity.

Nevertheless. Cheers.

As Christ returned, He had every right because in reality they were His followers who did not recognise Him yet claimed to believe in Him.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Fulfilled, finished, same thing. The gospel is no longer applicable to anyone even when the New Testament tells us it is an eternal gospel and that the covenant He made is an everlasting covenant. The covenant is not going to be replaced and the gospel does not stop applying to anyone who puts faith in Jesus.
Yes the soul does not die when the body is killed (Matt 10:28) That applies to all of us. Also Jesus body was resurrected and not left to rot in the grave. Baha'is deny the story because you believe Baha'u'llah. You may not want to be but you have become anti Christ (as in anti Jesus) and His everlasting Gospel.
You listen to Baha'u'llah, Abdul and Effendi say how wonderful the Bible is and you know that what they are really doing is saying most of it is wrong and are changing the whole Biblical message about the ONE Messiah into something completely different and then saying that the gospel message no longer is applicable to anyone.

Christ was accused of the same thing but said that He came not to destroy but to fulfil.

 

[firedragon]

As Christ returned, He had every right because in reality they were His followers who did not recognise Him yet claimed to believe in Him.

I was not talking about Christ or the returned Christ.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Baha'u'llah declares what the Bible denies.
Why would the return of Jesus have to write to anyone to say "Hay fellas, I'm here, I'm the Spirit of Truth, the return of Christ".
Luke 17:23 People will tell you, ‘Look, there He is! or ‘Look, here He is! Do not go out or chase after them. 24 For just as the lightning flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other, so will be the Son of Man in His day.…
Baha'u'llah was declaring to them that really he was a false Christ. The Christians knew the scriptures and were waiting for the real Christ, Jesus, to come as He promised.

Didnt Jesus say to ‘watch and pray? What would be the point of watching if it’s guaranteed that they can’t miss His coming?

 

[loverofhumanity]

I never win an argument, that's how it goes on the forums. I try to keep peace with everyone but it is not always possible.
I'm an Ozzie male about the same age as you so who knows we may bump into each other in this small country or ours and I wouldn't want to be on bad terms with you.

Cheers mate. I’m always happy to hear your point of view and it’s perfectly fine to disagree considering the stupendous claim being made that Christ has already returned. So go for it and know that no matter what, anyone who accepts Jesus has done the right thing and is blessed.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I was not talking about Christ or the returned Christ.

Sorry must have replied mistakenly.

 

[firedragon]

Sorry must have replied mistakenly.

Oh no worries.

 

[Trailblazer]

If you read my other posts you might see some of these things.
I will give you this passage which Baha'i says is false and which refutes and contradicts the Baha'i view since Baha'is say that Baha'u'llah is the Spirit of Truth promised by Jesus.

John 14:15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

Baha'is do not say that those verses are false.

Please explain why you think those verses refute the Baha'i view that Baha'u'llah is the Spirit of Truth promised by Jesus.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes I should stop now too really. Maybe we will speak again and say the same things.

All the best Brian2.

I have a couple of question for you to ponder.

What do you see is the importance of Israel and why do you think the Holy places of the Jews, the Christains, the Muslims and the Baha'i can be found in Israel?

No answer needed, unless you feel you need to, as personally I have my answer.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Yes.

And my take is, Jesus had told the disciples before crucifixion, what and how to write the Gospels. Jesus had told them to write these symbolic stories. Then they memorized it, and eventually written.

But with regards to the resurrection stories, Jesus forgot to tell the writers to make it clear that it was symbolic.

 

[CG Didymus]

Didnt Jesus say to ‘watch and pray? What would be the point of watching if it’s guaranteed that they can’t miss His coming?

Okay, they are to watch and pray, but what about this quote...

Luke 17:23 People will tell you, ‘Look, there He is! or ‘Look, here He is! Do not go out or chase after them. 24 For just as the lightning flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other, so will be the Son of Man in His day.…

How do Baha'i interpret it? And I always throw in the verse that says there will be wars and rumors of wars but that is not yet the end. So if Baha'u'llah is the return of Christ why is there still wars and rumors of wars?

 

[Trailblazer]

And my take is, Jesus had told the disciples before crucifixion, what and how to write the Gospels. Jesus had told them to write these symbolic stories. Then they memorized it, and eventually written.

Why do you think Jesus would do that, tell the disciples to write stories that sound like they are true stories?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Okay, they are to watch and pray, but what about this quote...
How do Baha'i interpret it? And I always throw in the verse that says there will be wars and rumors of wars but that is not yet the end. So if Baha'u'llah is the return of Christ why is there still wars and rumors of wars?

I’m really in an enormous good mood today almost overwhelmed that God has been so kind to me. And I think I have you guys to thank.

Matthew 24:27 elaborates on it a bit more.


For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Only my personal view is that this is saying that the Promised One shall appear in the East but His teachings or light of knowledge will shine in the west. Abdul-Baha has mentioned that in this Dispensation the west will become more radiant than the east spiritually so that’s a work in progress.


I believe that we cannot isolate incidents but must ‘associate’ all the signs to get the true picture. Ok so wars were supposed to occur snd wars almost always occur so how do we pinpoint which wars?

Other signs were given such as the stars would fall and the dark day and a great earthquake. And then there is 1844 which other Faiths arrived at independently.


If you study history, there was a star fall around the time both the Bab and Baha’u’llah appeared just like the Star of Bethlehem heralded Jesus. There was also a great earthquake close to that time, and a Dark Day. Now if these all happened within a certain time line proximity then I would be confident that the Promised One appeared around then and the wars spoken of were those ones.

Now these quotes are from a Christian William Spicer in the Book ‘Our Day in the Light of Prophecy’.........

“The stars shall fall from heaven." Matt. 24:29.”

“On Nov. 13, 1833, came the wondrous celestial exhibition of falling stars, which is listed as one of the most remarkable phenomena of the astronomical story.”

“No philosopher or scholar has told or recorded an event like that of yesterday morning. A prophet eighteen hundred years ago foretold it exactly, if we will be at the trouble of understanding stars falling to mean falling stars."—New York Journal of Commerce, Nov. 14, 1833.”

There’s much more but I don’t want to burden you so I’ll end here. But you get the point? Cross all the t’s and dot the i’s and it all comes together perfectly like the pieces of a jigsaw puzzle. Taking just one verse out of context can never relate the big picture which many do and getting tripped up on that on verse it becomes the test that proves to be the difference between them recognising their promised messiah. So unfortunate.

 

[firedragon]

Yes.

And my take is, Jesus had told the disciples before crucifixion, what and how to write the Gospels. Jesus had told them to write these symbolic stories. Then they memorized it, and eventually written.

Your "take"? Is there any scripture to back this up?

 

[firedragon]

I’m really in an enormous good mood today almost overwhelmed that God has been so kind to me. And I think I have you guys to thank.

Matthew 24:27 elaborates on it a bit more.


For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Only my personal view is that this is saying that the Promised One shall appear in the East but His teachings or light of knowledge will shine in the west. Abdul-Baha has mentioned that in this Dispensation the west will become more radiant than the east spiritually so that’s a work in progress.


I believe that we cannot isolate incidents but must ‘associate’ all the signs to get the true picture. Ok so wars were supposed to occur snd wars almost always occur so how do we pinpoint which wars?

Other signs were given such as the stars would fall and the dark day and a great earthquake. And then there is 1844 which other Faiths arrived at independently.


If you study history, there was a star fall around the time both the Bab and Baha’u’llah appeared just like the Star of Bethlehem heralded Jesus. There was also a great earthquake close to that time, and a Dark Day. Now if these all happened within a certain time line proximity then I would be confident that the Promised One appeared around then and the wars spoken of were those ones.

Now these quotes are from a Christian William Spicer in the Book ‘Our Day in the Light of Prophecy’.........

“The stars shall fall from heaven." Matt. 24:29.”

“On Nov. 13, 1833, came the wondrous celestial exhibition of falling stars, which is listed as one of the most remarkable phenomena of the astronomical story.”

“No philosopher or scholar has told or recorded an event like that of yesterday morning. A prophet eighteen hundred years ago foretold it exactly, if we will be at the trouble of understanding stars falling to mean falling stars."—New York Journal of Commerce, Nov. 14, 1833.”

There’s much more but I don’t want to burden you so I’ll end here. But you get the point? Cross all the t’s and dot the i’s and it all comes together perfectly like the pieces of a jigsaw puzzle. Taking just one verse out of context can never relate the big picture which many do and getting tripped up on that on verse it becomes the test that proves to be the difference between them recognising their promised messiah. So unfortunate.

What about the rest of it?

30“At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the
peoples of the earthc will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the
clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels
with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds,
from one end of the heavens to the other.

TNIV

 

[loverofhumanity]

What about the rest of it?

30“At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the
peoples of the earthc will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the
clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels
with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds,
from one end of the heavens to the other.

TNIV

This passage has been quoted by Baha’u’llah in His Book of Certitude. I only have the digital copy but doing a search can find the verse very easily.

https://www.bahai.org/library/authoritative-texts/bahaullah/kitab-i-iqan/kitab-i-iqan.pdf?197fd99f

 

[firedragon]

This passage has been quoted by Baha’u’llah in His Book of Certitude. I only have the digital copy but doing a search can find the verse very easily.

https://www.bahai.org/library/authoritative-texts/bahaullah/kitab-i-iqan/kitab-i-iqan.pdf?197fd99f

I am quoting the Bible, not Bahaullah. You quoted the Bible, same verse, and I am asking about the rest of the verse. And now you are quoting Bahaullah?? LOH, you should know that I have the Kithab I Iqan, I have read it from cover to cover, and I dont need you to point to it for an irrelevant question, from the Bible. I am only telling you this because you dont have to waste your time anymore doing the research and quoting this book for a question I asked form the Bible again.

You picked a part of the verse for "stars falling" as a sign, but I am asking about the rest of it. I even cut and pasted the full verse, and the context from the TNIV and asked you what about the "rest of the prophecies or/and signs".

I am surprised you cannot understand a question LOH. I am seriously surprised.

Anyway, I dont think I will get any response properly so I think I will stop asking them. There is no hope whatsoever. Every single question I ask, if it is not in your grasp or within your liking you seem not to answer any of them. Every single time.

So its better never to interact again. Peace.

 

[Brian2]

I am no Bahai Brian, but I must say that Bahaullah did praise Jesus, if not the word is Glorified. I dont agree with their theology, but in his writing he does.

The praise that I have seen is usually included in a section that speaks things of Jesus that are different to what the Bible says of Jesus. The praise also brings Jesus down from what the Bible tells us of Him and makes Him lower and at the same time raising Baha'u'llah to the same level or even higher, since Baha'u'llah is the Manifestation of the Father and is the highest Manifestation and is the Ancient of Days (of Daniel 7:13,14).
It is like the praise that an atheist might give to Jesus by calling Him a wise teacher.