Trailblazer
Veteran Member
That's fine, as long as there is no payback later.Another healing service that "God" provides us.
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What is God responsible for?
- Thread starter Trailblazer
- Start date
That certainly is an interesting journey. Thanks for sharing and looking forward to hearing more on it.
Again... very interesting. What does it mean to you that you accepted Jesus?
Actually, more than that in Christian understanding. He forgave all of mankind, past present and future.
Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
Why does your reason and logic trump what you determined to be true through your independent investigation using logic and reason, and I also believe through spiritual perception of whether Baha'u'llah is infallible? I would think you would be caught in-between, not knowing what to believe, instead of being certain that Baha'u'llah is wrong. You can't really be selective in when Baha'u'llah is infallible or not, it's the whole package. Isn't it possible that you could be wrong that God is not loving?
I have a new insight today that perhaps what Baha'u'llah means by "decree" as opposed to "trials" is that God specifically sends some trials, but we also are subject to how this Universe works which can cause suffering sometimes which is His "decree".
When a man beats you repeatedly, or ignores your beatings, that is a man with bad intent. Is God beating you repeatedly metaphorically with bad intent? I would say no. I don't think there is bad intent behind the suffering you go through. The specific meaning of trials is it is a test to see whether you pass that test or not. If you pass that test, you demonstrate to the world the validity of your faith like Baha'u'llah demonstrated His validity through passing His trials. If you fail that trial or test now you know more about yourself, which gives you the opportunity to improve yourself. There can be suffering when you go through a test or trial, but suffering is not necessarily involved. Those who improve themselves spiritually and morally are on a higher plane of existence that causes spiritual joy, if not in this world, then in the next, and I think it causes true happiness usually in this world, not just in the next world.
If it's a "decree", you have to widen your view and see what benefits you get from how the Universe works as well as the suffering involved sometimes. Try to find positive aspects to how this world works is my advice. If you concentrate on the positive aspects of this world, you'll be happier. You have to look at the upside reasons for how it is as well as the downside reasons. The "decree" of God includes people having free will, which causes people to sometimes do bad things to each other. But do we really want people to be perfect automatically, and not by their free will have the opportunity to improve themselves and thus become a reflection of God and partake of spiritual joys because likeness to God means they get closer to God, and doing that with their own efforts with the aid of God. We can't improve ourselves with our unaided efforts. We need the help of God as well. That's the upside of that.
It's harder for you to appreciate all of that, because mostly, I perceive, you experience the downside of trials and decrees and see other people experience it, because you are sensitive to their suffering of others because of your own suffering. Empathy is not a bad thing.
My suffering in life has been mainly perhaps a trial by God when my son turned out to be autistic and couldn't talk. I and my family have the genes that help make that happen, but the genes didn't have to combine that way in his case. I went through a brief depression because of that.
My main "decree" is seeing disunity engendered by a Baha'i in my community, and a lack of growth in numbers and maturity in the Baha'is in my area. Maybe there's more maturity growth than I think, I don't know, but the numbers are stagnant. This caused my second depression a few years ago. I shared my depression with you at that time.
I haven't suffered like you have, I don't think, so it is easier for me to accept what has happened and not get mad at God.
You have some fortitude and patience which shows a sign of love, and you as far as your intent has been to serve mankind in what you are doing, so this is worship. In this case, worship means exemplifying the attributes of God.
But at the same time, you get mad at God, and blame God for how things are in the world.
Neither side gives a complete picture.
God can help you cope, but you would have to reach out to Him. My view is that the help of God mostly consists of helping you transform your outlook and spiritual welfare.
I'm saving this post, both what you and I said in a file because the insights it generated for me are helpful.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Be careful what you ask for.
Actually, if you want to hear my story, you can read it in this post: #119
In this post is my story as I related it to a Christian on this forum in May 2020. He was telling me about how he went from being a Catholic in his childhood to atheism in adulthood, and how he returned to Catholicism. The context is that he had a spiritual experience but I forgot all the details.
Probably the best way to explain what that means to a Baha'is to accept Jesus is to quote the Guardiaian of the Baha'i Faith, because for us that is considered 'authoritative Writings' of the Baha'i Faith:
“As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation that its divine origin is unconditionally acknowledged, that the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus Christ are fearlessly asserted, that the divine inspiration of the Gospel is fully recognized, that the reality of the mystery of the Immaculacy of the Virgin Mary is confessed, and the primacy of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, is upheld and defended. The Founder of the Christian Faith is designated by Bahá’u’lláh as the “Spirit of God,” is proclaimed as the One Who “appeared out of the breath of the Holy Ghost,” and is even extolled as the “Essence of the Spirit.” His mother is described as “that veiled and immortal, that most beauteous, countenance,” and the station of her Son eulogized as a “station which hath been exalted above the imaginings of all that dwell on earth,” whilst Peter is recognized as one whom God has caused “the mysteries of wisdom and of utterance to flow out of his mouth.” “Know thou,” Bahá’u’lláh has moreover testified, “that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive and resplendent Spirit. We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened and the soul of the sinner sanctified…. He it is Who purified the world. Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him.”
The Promised Day is Come, pp. 109-110
When you say that God forgave all of mankind, I guess you mean for the original sin of Adam and Eve.
That Baha'i Faith has a different take of that, which you can read in this short chapter: 30: ADAM AND EVE
Below is a short excerpt from that chapter that explains what Christ did to save us. The following quote explains how it was the Word of God as well as the cross sacrifice that freed us from the chains of bondage. Christ gave us His teachings (profusion of His bounties) and then later died on the cross (suffered the greatest martyrdom) so we could be free of sin and attain everlasting life..
“…those who turned toward the Word of God and received the profusion of His bounties—were saved from this attachment and sin, obtained everlasting life, were delivered from the chains of bondage, and attained to the world of liberty. They were freed from the vices of the human world, and were blessed by the virtues of the Kingdom. This is the meaning of the words of Christ, “I gave My blood for the life of the world” 6 —that is to say, I have chosen all these troubles, these sufferings, calamities, and even the greatest martyrdom, to attain this object, the remission of sins.” Some Answered Questions, p. 125
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Those are all good questions Duane, and good observations. Yes, I am caught in-between, not knowing what to believe, instead of being certain that Baha'u'llah is wrong. That is one reason I started this thread, to get some feedback from other believers. I am amenable to change, I just don't know how to change.
Yes, I believe that Baha'u'llah is infallible, so logically speaking, He cannot be wrong about God. However, one problem lies in how we interpret scripture. Where does Baha'u'llah say God is All-Loving and that God cannot also be harsh and mean?
3: O SON OF MAN! Veiled in My immemorial being and in the ancient eternity of My essence, I knew My love for thee; therefore I created thee, have engraved on thee Mine image and revealed to thee My beauty.
4: O SON OF MAN! I loved thy creation, hence I created thee. Wherefore, do thou love Me, that I may name thy name and fill thy soul with the spirit of life.
5: O SON OF BEING! Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant.
6: O SON OF BEING! Thy Paradise is My love; thy heavenly home, reunion with Me. Enter therein and tarry not. This is that which hath been destined for thee in Our kingdom above and Our exalted dominion.
7: O SON OF MAN! If thou lovest Me, turn away from thyself; and if thou seekest My pleasure, regard not thine own; that thou mayest die in Me and I may eternally live in thee.
8: O SON OF SPIRIT! There is no peace for thee save by renouncing thyself and turning unto Me; for it behooveth thee to glory in My name, not in thine own; to put thy trust in Me and not in thyself, since I desire to be loved alone and above all that is.
9: O SON OF BEING! My love is My stronghold; he that entereth therein is safe and secure, and he that turneth away shall surely stray and perish.
10: O SON OF UTTERANCE! Thou art My stronghold; enter therein that thou mayest abide in safety. My love is in thee, know it, that thou mayest find Me near unto thee.
The Hidden Words of Baha'u'llah
But aside from sending Messengers, what does God actually do to show His love? Are we supposed to believe God loves us just because scriptures say that? I guess the answer is "yes" if we are a Christian or a Baha'i, but a Muslim or a Hindu might have a different take on it.
Okay, that makes sense, but in my mind it all amounts to the same thing, as God is responsible for the suffering one way or another.
If by "pass the tests" you mean I endure them rather than running away from them and come out on the other side, I guess I do that, but how much benefit it is to me or how I can help other people as the result of my trials is a different matter. And I will admit it Duane, I am pissed off at God for putting me through this time and again. I cannot consider that loving, i just can't. Maybe to you losing five cats in one year would be nothing, but it has been the cause of inordinate suffering the likes of which I cannot even possibly describe in words, and many rational people do understand that losing that many cats in one year is certainly not what most people endure.
How can I ever know if by passing the tests I have demonstrated to the world the validity of your faith like Baha'u'llah demonstrated His validity through passing His trials, if nobody even knows what i have been through? Some people on this forum know some of it, but that's all.
I cannot see how it would be a test or trial if there was no suffering involved, and if you mean radiant acquiescence to me that means it could not have been that bad. Talk is cheap and Baha's talk a lot about things they have never experienced.
In spite of all I say, I do understand what you mean about improving oneself spiritually and morally and thus being on a higher plane of existence that causes spiritual joy, because I have glimmers of that from time to time.
The problem with that is that I do not have anything positive in my life and I cannot create it as my life situation is what it is. You know I live the cats and I feel that is all I love and all I have to live for, as I see no hope on the horizon. Given my history, it would not take much to throw me headlong into a depression, and I cannot afford for that to happen, so I have to keep fighting this any way I can.
The other problem is that you talk about the aid of God, but where is God? – Nowhere. I think it is unfair and cruel to say it is my fault because I shut God out, because that is not even true. I cry out to God and get no answer, and that is one reason I turn to people on forums, because at least I get answers.
I am also sad by the lack of growth in the Faith, but it is loss through death that has been my biggest trial. Over the years my response to the loss of cats has changed, I guess you could say for the better, because at least I do not end up in urgent care as happened in the past. I work through it usually by myself and with talking to Lewis, but he gets tired of me ranking on God and it usually ends up on him telling me I do not really believe in Bahaullah so I should drop out of the Faith. I was actually doing okay until this last cat. For some reason it has pushed me over the edge, but it is only day two, so maybe I need to be patient with myself.
I am glad I was able to help you attain some new insights as you were able to help me.
Yes, I do serve God but I also get angry at God, so there are two sides of the coin.
I have reached out to God but maybe not as much as I should or could, but it is difficult to reach out what I hate God and that puts me in a Catch-22 situation. Also, it is possible that God heard my cries and answered them but I am unable to see the answer because of my own pain and maybe also my ego.
I will have to share what I wanted to share with you from the BahaiTeachings.org article in another posts because this post is already too long, close to the character limit.
stvdv
Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
I once asked God "I do not feel Love (for God)"
I got my answer
So, you could try asking God, He might give you a hint (or 2)
The trick is to ask, but more difficult is to "listen" and "hear"
Took me quite a while to master the art to "listen+hear"
Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
Oh, my God, another cat! I'm so sorry!
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Below are some excerpts (indented) from that article I was talking about.
https://bahaiteachings.org/how-to-turn-your-grief-into-creativity
If you’ve ever grieved over a major loss in life, you know how profoundly painful it can be – so is there a way to creatively transform that pain into something else, something better?
Grief and loss can trigger many emotions and physical responses, some we can anticipate, some of which we cannot.
But despite how terrible we may feel in our grief and loss, this passage from Abdu’l-Baha humbly reminds us of the deep purpose and power of grief in our own personal development: “Grief and sorrow do not come to us by chance, they are sent to us by the Divine Mercy for our own perfecting.”
Grief and loss can trigger many emotions and physical responses, some we can anticipate, some of which we cannot.
But despite how terrible we may feel in our grief and loss, this passage from Abdu’l-Baha humbly reminds us of the deep purpose and power of grief in our own personal development: “Grief and sorrow do not come to us by chance, they are sent to us by the Divine Mercy for our own perfecting.”
Who is Abdu’l-Baha to say that grief and sorrow are sent to us? He is not a Manifestation of God, so this is either how he interpreted the Writings of Baha’u’llah or it is his own personal opinion. Personally, I think it is the latter because Abdu’l-Baha has a bias about how grief and sorrow are for our own benefit. But they are not always for our benefit, that’s the problem. But Abdu’l-Baha’s answer to that would be that is because we are not holy souls, we are cowards, because we could not stand up to the test. I consider what Abdu’l-Baha said in the following passage insensitive and judgmental. No veil is greater than egotism, what egotism?
TRIALS A GIFT FROM GOD
“Thou hast written concerning the tests that have come upon thee. To the sincere ones, tests are as a gift from God, the Exalted, for a heroic person hasteneth, with the utmost joy and gladness, to the tests of a violent battlefield, but the coward is afraid and trembles and utters moaning and lamentation. Likewise, an expert student prepareth and memorizeth his lessons and exercises with the utmost effort, and in the day of examination he appeareth with infinite joy before the master. Likewise, the pure gold shineth radiantly in the fire of test. Consequently, it is made clear that for holy souls, trials are as the gift of God, the Exalted; but for weak souls they are an unexpected calamity. This test is just as thou hast written: it removeth the rust of egotism from the mirror of the heart until the Sun of Truth may shine therein. For, no veil is greater than egotism and no matter how thin that covering may be, yet it will finally veil man entirely and prevent him from receiving a portion from the eternal bounty.” Bahá’í World Faith, pp. 371-372
Emotions of grief and loss can be triggered through the death of a loved one, but also by the loss of a relationship or a job, or a decline in health, or even from tragedies that happen to others. Oftentimes, when we experience such traumatic events, we feel unlike ourselves, clouded, heavy-hearted and out of sorts with the world. Other issues such as depression, physical illness, and confusion begin to come to the surface. As a result we feel out of control and develop the inability to articulate in words how we feel and how we process our loss or trauma.
No one avoids suffering in this life – but, in the following words of Abdu’l-Baha, without suffering, we cannot progress:
Men who suffer not, attain no perfection. The plant most pruned by the gardeners is that one which, when the summer comes, will have the most beautiful blossoms and the most abundant fruit. The labourer cuts up the earth with his plough, and from that earth comes the rich and plentiful harvest. The more a man is chastened, the greater is the harvest of spiritual virtues shown forth by him.
No one avoids suffering in this life – but, in the following words of Abdu’l-Baha, without suffering, we cannot progress:
Men who suffer not, attain no perfection. The plant most pruned by the gardeners is that one which, when the summer comes, will have the most beautiful blossoms and the most abundant fruit. The labourer cuts up the earth with his plough, and from that earth comes the rich and plentiful harvest. The more a man is chastened, the greater is the harvest of spiritual virtues shown forth by him.
I am sorry Duane but that does not comport with reality. I know many Baha’is who have suffered hardly at all, as everything in their lives went their way – career, marriage, children, friends, etc. -- so does that mean they will not attain any perfection? If what Abdu’l-Baha said is true, I should have been perfect a long time ago
O sincere servant of the True One! I hear thou art grieved and distressed at the happenings of the world and the vicissitudes of fortune. Wherefore this fear and sorrow? The true lovers of [Baha’u’llah], and they that have quaffed the Cup of the Covenant fear no calamity, nor feel depressed in the hour of trial. They regard the fire of adversity as their garden of delight, and the depth of the sea the expanse of heaven. – Abdu’l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu’l-Baha
So now I do not love Baha’u’llah in spite of the fact that I have dedicated almost my whole life teaching the Faith? What Abdu’l-Baha says is almost enough to make be drop out of the Faith, ot is so judgmental, but I don’t drop out because I do not blame Baha’u’llah for what Abdu’l-Baha says or writes, since that is unjust. Perhaps Abdul-baha is going in his pwn experiuecenand expecting everyone to be like him, and it never even occurred to him how these passages might make people feel.
Thank you very much, I will try to live up to what Baha’u’llah has enjoined me to do, and I will take what Abdu’l-Baha said with a grain of salt.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Thanks Duane. Tell God about that, obviously He does not give a rip how much I suffer, or how much the cats suffer, so why should I care about God? I do not care, but I care about Baha'u'llah, and I will work for Him.
I have seen too much suffering this year to still believe God is Loving.
God allows suffering. God doesn't answer prayers. But, religion offers suggestions in the bible (commandments, really, that we have the freedom of choice to follow or not), that will help us lead better lives, or cope with the agonies of life.
God: Attacking Iraq will incur my wrath. That's what it says in Revelation (a chapter of the bible), but it says it in very obscure wording that almost no one cares to understand.
Now, after defying God, by attacking Iraq, President W. Bush put us in the end times (the times of God's wrath). Part of God's punishment is Revelation 15 (7 plagues).
Many many many Christians don't seem to understand that the COVID plague is part of God's punishment for attacking Iraq. We cannot pray to God for relief because we are supposed to suffer until God destroys the entire world for our sins.
I suppose that the Bush presidents thought that they were bringing on the rapture for Christians by casting themselves in the roles of the dragon and the beast....two Satanic demons from the bottomless pit of hell (according to Revelation) who rose to the presidency of the United States and attacked Iraq (against God's commandment not to).
So, there is no salvation, and no cease of suffering, for the world has sinned and sinned horribly for allowing President W. Bush to have continue to do the unGodly, and antiChrist things that he did.
God: Attacking Iraq will incur my wrath. That's what it says in Revelation (a chapter of the bible), but it says it in very obscure wording that almost no one cares to understand.
Now, after defying God, by attacking Iraq, President W. Bush put us in the end times (the times of God's wrath). Part of God's punishment is Revelation 15 (7 plagues).
Many many many Christians don't seem to understand that the COVID plague is part of God's punishment for attacking Iraq. We cannot pray to God for relief because we are supposed to suffer until God destroys the entire world for our sins.
I suppose that the Bush presidents thought that they were bringing on the rapture for Christians by casting themselves in the roles of the dragon and the beast....two Satanic demons from the bottomless pit of hell (according to Revelation) who rose to the presidency of the United States and attacked Iraq (against God's commandment not to).
So, there is no salvation, and no cease of suffering, for the world has sinned and sinned horribly for allowing President W. Bush to have continue to do the unGodly, and antiChrist things that he did.
IF God is omnipotent and omniscient
THEN God is responsible for everything and ALL the bucks stop at God's desk,
There's no alternative possibility since nothing can happen except as God perfectly foresaw and willed before [he] made the universe.
IF God is neither omnipotent nor omniscient ─ if [he] were one of those [he] could instantly make [himself] the other as well ─
THEN no one is in control and God is just another player like we are, inside nature.
Take your pick.
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
Hello again, Trailblazer.
Deists have a very short answer to the question, above......
Nothing. .........
That's it.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I pick...
God is omnipotent and omniscient
SO God is responsible for everything and ALL the bucks stop at God's desk....
As perhaps you might have ascertained by what I said in the OP.
"so by design God decided that humans and animals would be mortal creatures. The fact that this might have been the only way it could have been since humans and animals have to die so new life can be born is irrelevant, as God is still responsible for the design and the suffering it causes when people and animals die. But we believers are supposed to just grin and bear it and love God regardless of all the suffering He is responsible for. I am sorry but I cannot do it."
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I love your answer, wish I could believe it.Hello again, Trailblazer.
Deists have a very short answer to the question, above......
Nothing. .........
That's it.
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
All Deists can do with any honesty is curse bad-luck...... it somehow just doesn't have the impact that a Theist can deliver...I love your answer, wish I could believe it.
stvdv
Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Certain Scriptures provide the solution for this problem. Of course all are free to ignore these solutions and dwell on the suffering part
We have a saying in Dutch that is translated "man suffers most from the suffering he fears" (this does not apply just for men, also for women)
Spirit of Light
Be who ever you want
What is God responsable for?I want to offer a little background about the man named Kit that I am quoting below. He is a longtime friend I met on another forum over six years ago. He does not post on forums anymore but we keep in touch through e-mail. He was once a Christian, before he dropped out and became a nonbeliever. About a year and a half ago, because of something dramatic that happened in his life, he came to believe in God, but he has no religion.
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I said: What kind of God would allow so much suffering in the world, not just me but all that is going on with Covid-19?..... Yes, I still believe in God and Baha'u'llah but the very last thing I need now is some Baha'i telling me that suffering is good for me or some Christian telling me that God is loving.
Kit said: I can't really get into that....but I do sympathize with what you are saying. We, and by that I mean ALL of us who "believe', are guilty of taking this God thing way too far as to how we figure God should be, and what God should do. We go and blame God for things which have nothing really to DO with God.
I agree with him that religious believers attribute far too much to God, saying God is doing this and that. Conversely, some people blame God for things that have nothing to do with God. How can we really know what God is doing or not doing? It really annoys be when religious people read scriptures and then draw conclusions about what God is doing based upon their limited human understanding of God. For example, some people of my religion will say that God is sending me tests and they are for my own benefit so I can grow spiritually, so I should be grateful for these tests.
Religious believers also assign attributes to God, such as loving, merciful and just. What is the evidence that God has these attributes other than their scriptures, and is that good enough to believe God has these attributes, when we see no evidence that demonstrates that God is loving, merciful, or just?
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I said: You just captured my EXACT thoughts and feelings and put them to paper… why indeed does this have to happen? I hate to bring God into this but if the shoe fits wear it, God. Death is part of God’s design.
Kit said: That's another flaw in a typical believer's way of thinking, that an all-knowing God actually has something as silly (for an all knowing God) as a PLAN. But like anything else, no one can tell them anything that contradicts their beliefs.
Then again, regarding "death" as unpleasant as it is, it IS a necessary 'evil', to prevent the perils of overpopulation. Just that God had nothing to actually DO with it. Biology has its OWN system of checks and balances...sometimes called "evolution"
I disagree that God has nothing to do with death, because God is responsible for the Creation, so even though humans and animals evolved, God is responsible for the process of evolution; so by design God decided that humans and animals would be mortal creatures. The fact that this might have been the only way it could have been since humans and animals have to die so new life can be born is irrelevant, as God is still responsible for the design and the suffering it causes when people and animals die.
But we believers are supposed to just grin and bear it and love God regardless of all the suffering He is responsible for. I am sorry but I cannot love God no matter how hard I try, although I am told by by other believers that if I do not love God there will be consequences, especially in the afterlife.
To give human being teaching that will enlighten each human who become a follower of Gods teaching. It is up to each human to develop wisdom from within to be able to let go of the suffering and pain the keep holding on to.
God ask us to live in this moment, not in the past clinging to whatever painful we have experienced and not in the future clinging to the "wish" that God will solve our problems.
@Trailblazer your suffering is within you, you are the one who must let go
very difficult to do, but God does not harm you. As long as you hold on to your past you will not see the light (God)Sorry if my words seem cold and harsh, but you are the one who can use Gods teaching to become closer to God
we all are in the search for truth, God, light, love. It is within each one of us, but we are the one who can open our own heart fully to gain the wisdom needed to become as God.
nPeace
Veteran Member
God? Who or what is God? Why does one even believe there is something called God? Why God?I want to offer a little background about the man named Kit that I am quoting below. He is a longtime friend I met on another forum over six years ago. He does not post on forums anymore but we keep in touch through e-mail. He was once a Christian, before he dropped out and became a nonbeliever. About a year and a half ago, because of something dramatic that happened in his life, he came to believe in God, but he has no religion.
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I said: What kind of God would allow so much suffering in the world, not just me but all that is going on with Covid-19?..... Yes, I still believe in God and Baha'u'llah but the very last thing I need now is some Baha'i telling me that suffering is good for me or some Christian telling me that God is loving.
Kit said: I can't really get into that....but I do sympathize with what you are saying. We, and by that I mean ALL of us who "believe', are guilty of taking this God thing way too far as to how we figure God should be, and what God should do. We go and blame God for things which have nothing really to DO with God.
I agree with him that religious believers attribute far too much to God, saying God is doing this and that. Conversely, some people blame God for things that have nothing to do with God. How can we really know what God is doing or not doing? It really annoys be when religious people read scriptures and then draw conclusions about what God is doing based upon their limited human understanding of God. For example, some people of my religion will say that God is sending me tests and they are for my own benefit so I can grow spiritually, so I should be grateful for these tests.
Religious believers also assign attributes to God, such as loving, merciful and just. What is the evidence that God has these attributes other than their scriptures, and is that good enough to believe God has these attributes, when we see no evidence that demonstrates that God is loving, merciful, or just?
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I said: You just captured my EXACT thoughts and feelings and put them to paper… why indeed does this have to happen? I hate to bring God into this but if the shoe fits wear it, God. Death is part of God’s design.
Kit said: That's another flaw in a typical believer's way of thinking, that an all-knowing God actually has something as silly (for an all knowing God) as a PLAN. But like anything else, no one can tell them anything that contradicts their beliefs.
Then again, regarding "death" as unpleasant as it is, it IS a necessary 'evil', to prevent the perils of overpopulation. Just that God had nothing to actually DO with it. Biology has its OWN system of checks and balances...sometimes called "evolution"
I disagree that God has nothing to do with death, because God is responsible for the Creation, so even though humans and animals evolved, God is responsible for the process of evolution; so by design God decided that humans and animals would be mortal creatures. The fact that this might have been the only way it could have been since humans and animals have to die so new life can be born is irrelevant, as God is still responsible for the design and the suffering it causes when people and animals die.
But we believers are supposed to just grin and bear it and love God regardless of all the suffering He is responsible for. I am sorry but I cannot love God no matter how hard I try, although I am told by by other believers that if I do not love God there will be consequences, especially in the afterlife.
Are you ever asked these questions? How do you answer them?
Be careful what you ask for.
Actually, if you want to hear my story, you can read it in this post: #119
In this post is my story as I related it to a Christian on this forum in May 2020. He was telling me about how he went from being a Catholic in his childhood to atheism in adulthood, and how he returned to Catholicism. The context is that he had a spiritual experience but I forgot all the details.
I remember now when I read it the first time. Thank you for directing me to it.
Actually no but yes (as far as Adam and Eve). You probably are thinking in light of Catholicism. But I am speaking of our own sins, past, present and future.
I love your quote. I may have an expanded version in my mind so I would say it this way (change in bold),
"those who turned toward the Word of God and received the profusion of His bounties—were spiritually saved from this attachment and sin, obtained everlasting life, were spiritually delivered from the chains of bondage, and attained to the world of liberty. They were spiritually freed from the vices of the human world, and were blessed by the virtues of the Kingdom. This is the meaning of the words of Christ, “I gave My blood for the life of the world” 6 —that is to say, I have chosen all these troubles, these sufferings, calamities, and even the greatest martyrdom, to attain this object, the remission of sins. The physical manifestation of what was accomplished in the spiritual realm is a process of receiving the engrafted word of God until it is created.
And where do you think that desire to reject God came from?
Many theists tell me that, ultimately, everything came from God. If this is true, then the desire to reject God must have also come from God.