The Limits of Religious Freedom?

[ReluctantMathematician]

You're a mathematician, right?

Why not re-read what I wrote, and then tell me what you think I am saying about that?

I am asking you to clarify to me if that is hate speech, as that is the type of speech @Amanaki is referring to. I know this from past dealings.

 

[QuestioningMind]

Religious freedom is too often used as an excuse to engage in behavior that puts others at risk (i.e. not vaccinating your children) and as an excuse for bigotry and prejudice towards minorities. While religious freedom is a vital cornerstone for a free society, it also must clearly have limits. So my question is what are those limits?

In a secular society it should be when religious behavior conflicts with established secular law.

 

[Spirit of Light]

I am asking you to clarify to me if that is hate speech, as that is the type of speech @Amanaki is referring to. I know this from past dealings.

If you disagree with Islam or any other religions that is up to you, no problem, where i react and always will react is when someone trash someones personal belief in a religion, because you see it as your right to trash someonse belief.

 

[ReluctantMathematician]

If you disagree with Islam or any other religions that is up to you, no problem, where i react and always will react is when someone trash someones personal belief in a religion, because you see it as your right to trash someonse belief.

I think you just have a problem with non-believers.

 

[Spirit of Light]

I think you just have a problem with non-believers.

Only those who bash religion in every chance they get.
I k ow atheists who are really nice and never say anything bad about any religion, those are nice people

 

[exchemist]

I am asking you to clarify to me if that is hate speech, as that is the type of speech @Amanaki is referring to.

OK [sigh]. I quote my own words:

" Basically you can criticise the religion all you want, but you are not free to attack the followers of that religion without restraint."

So yes, you can say Islam is made up nonsense. It's a point of view and anyone is entitled to argue what they like about any system of ideas, which is what a religion is. However, if you say all muslims must be mentally retarded for believing it, you will get arrested.

There is a reasonable body of law on this which you can consult if you are interested: Hate speech laws in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia

Note: there is an explicit protection of the right to express views antipathetic to a religion, as follows:

" Nothing in this Part shall be read or given effect in a way which prohibits or restricts discussion, criticism or expressions of antipathy, dislike, ridicule, insult or abuse of particular religions or the beliefs or practices of their adherents, or of any other belief system or the beliefs or practices of its adherents, or proselytising or urging adherents of a different religion or belief system to cease practising their religion or belief system."

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I think you just have a problem with non-believers.

Well, I demand evidence and not what you think.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

OK [sigh]. I quote my own words:

" Basically you can criticise the religion all you want, but you are not free to attack the followers of that religion without restraint."

So yes, you can say Islam is made up nonsense. It's a point of view and anyone is entitled to argue what they like about any system of ideas, which is what a religion is. However, if you say all muslims must be mentally retarded for believing it, you will get arrested.

There is a reasonable body of law on this which you can consult if you are interested: Hate speech laws in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia

Note: there is an explicit protection of the right to express views antipathetic to a religion, as follows:

" Nothing in this Part shall be read or given effect in a way which prohibits or restricts discussion, criticism or expressions of antipathy, dislike, ridicule, insult or abuse of particular religions or the beliefs or practices of their adherents, or of any other belief system or the beliefs or practices of its adherents, or proselytising or urging adherents of a different religion or belief system to cease practising their religion or belief system."

I like it says belief system.

 

[QuestioningMind]

Because most of the ridicule toward religious people comes from non believers. I know because i see it every day.
I want it to stop but i know it will never do.
So the answer to the OP for me is, there is no freedom of religion in the world anymore, because if someone tell what the religious teachings says, often it ends up in ridiculing because the religion has other rules then the "norm" of todays views.

I don't agree. Freedom of religion does not mean freedom from ridicule. Just like anyone is free to believe that the Earth is flat, but I'm free to point how how ridiculous such a claim is.

 

[Spirit of Light]

I don't agree. Freedom of religion does not mean freedom from ridicule. Just like anyone is free to believe that the Earth is flat, but I'm free to point how how ridiculous such a claim is.

So a believer is not allowed to freely hold his or her belief because you disagree with them?
If yes, that means you see your self as superior to religious people

 

[ReluctantMathematician]

OK [sigh]. I quote my own words:

" Basically you can criticise the religion all you want, but you are not free to attack the followers of that religion without restraint."

So yes, you can say Islam is made up nonsense. It's a point of view and anyone is entitled to argue what they like about any system of ideas, which is what a religion is. However, if you say all muslims must be mentally retarded for believing it, you will get arrested.

There is a reasonable body of law on this which you can consult if you are interested: Hate speech laws in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia

Note: there is an explicit protection of the right to express views antipathetic to a religion, as follows:

" Nothing in this Part shall be read or given effect in a way which prohibits or restricts discussion, criticism or expressions of antipathy, dislike, ridicule, insult or abuse of particular religions or the beliefs or practices of their adherents, or of any other belief system or the beliefs or practices of its adherents, or proselytising or urging adherents of a different religion or belief system to cease practising their religion or belief system."

And this is my point. When @Amanaki says:

Religious freedom is to be able to practice the teaching one has chosen to follow without being ridiculed by others especially those who hold no belief at all.

They mean more than hate speech. Basically, it means anything @Amanaki doesn't like.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I don't agree. Freedom of religion does not mean freedom from ridicule. Just like anyone is free to believe that the Earth is flat, but I'm free to point how how ridiculous such a claim is.

But the claim is not ridiculous as it doesn't have the property being ridiculous. It is a feeling in you.

 

[Spirit of Light]

And this is my point. When @Amanaki says:



They mean more than hate speech. Basically, it means anything @Amanaki doesn't like.

No, it means any religious person should be free to practice his or her religious belief.
Not everything i say is about my self. I see it as all religious people, not just me

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

No, it means any religious person should be free to practice his or her religious belief.
Not everything i say is about my self. I see it as all religious people, not just me

Is there a limit to religious belief?

 

[ReluctantMathematician]

No, it means any religious person should be free to practice his or her religious belief.
Not everything i say is about my self. I see it as all religious people, not just me

Then you believe I should be able to freely say "Islam is made up nonsense"?

 

[exchemist]

And this is my point. When @Amanaki says:



They mean more than hate speech. Basically, it means anything @Amanaki doesn't like.

Take that up with @Amanaki , then.

I think the distinction the UK law makes is clear, and I think it is correct. One must have the right to dispute ideas, but one does not have an unfettered right to abuse people, or to stir up feelings of antipathy towards them.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Is there a limit to religious belief?

Not sure in what way you think here, but i would say it should be free to practice the religion one feel is right for one self.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Then you believe I should be able to freely say "Islam is made up nonsense"?

That is your opinion about Islam, i dont stop you from holding that belief

 

[QuestioningMind]

So a believer is not allowed to freely hold his or her belief because you disagree with them?
If yes, that means you see your self as superior to religious people

A believer is ABSOLUTELY allowed to freely believe whatever they want. Just like a flat -Earther is ABSOLUTELY allowed to believe whatever they want. Does the fact that I point out how ridiculous I think the flat Earth claim is in any way prevent them from believing that the Earth is flat? Does the fact that I think Scientologists are silly for believing in a religion made up by a science fiction writer in any way prevent anyone from believing in Scientology?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Not sure in what way you think here, but i would say it should be free to practice the religion one feel is right for one self.

Well, that is a limit, because then I can't practice my religion on you, if you don't feel right about it.