God’s Method of delivering messages, is it flawed?

[PAUL MARKHAM]

With that reply, It appears you were not after an answer to your question.


Regards Tony

I was after a simple answer to a simple question, how do the messengers from god communicate with god?

Iwas not asking for a wall of text that avoided a simple answer.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

All the best with that.

Goodbye.

Regards Tony

So how does this living in peace work if some choose to get more by exploiting the weak?

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

The Christians got that wrong.....
The Bible does not say the end of the world, it says the end of an age... BIG difference.

What Baha'u;llah predicted is related to the end of the old age and the beginning of the new age and it is happening right now. The old world order is dying and a new world order is rising in its stead. Are you really that blind?

“Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 7

A list of times people and including the bible predict the end of days, apocalypse or whatever.

Book of Revelation prophecy 2019: What does the Bible say will happen?

List of dates predicted for apocalyptic events - Wikipedia

So where does Baha predict the end of America?

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

Matthew 7:13-14 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

So god is trying to make it as hard as possible.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

Your choice.
I do not have to choose because I can read both.

‘Abdu’l-Bahá said:

I have spoken to you of some of the principles of Bahá’u’lláh: The Search after Truth and The Unity of Mankind. I will now explain the Fourth Principle, which is The Acceptance of the Relation between Religion and Science.

There is no contradiction between true religion and science. When a religion is opposed to science it becomes mere superstition: that which is contrary to knowledge is ignorance.

How can a man believe to be a fact that which science has proved to be impossible? If he believes in spite of his reason, it is rather ignorant superstition than faith. The true principles of all religions are in conformity with the teachings of science.

The Unity of God is logical, and this idea is not antagonistic to the conclusions arrived at by scientific study.

All religions teach that we must do good, that we must be generous, sincere, truthful, law-abiding, and faithful; all this is reasonable, and logically the only way in which humanity can progress.

All religious laws conform to reason, and are suited to the people for whom they are framed, and for the age in which they are to be obeyed........

It is impossible for religion to be contrary to science, even though some intellects are too weak or too immature to understand truth.

God made religion and science to be the measure, as it were, of our understanding. Take heed that you neglect not such a wonderful power. Weigh all things in this balance.

Paris Talks, pp. 141-142, 145

From: FOURTH PRINCIPLE—THE ACCEPTANCE OF THE RELATION BETWEEN RELIGION AND SCIENCE

So you see where science proves the bible writers didn't have a clue. Telling the people they were messengers from god and not having the right information proves god is a liar or they're liars. They had no message from god.

 

[Jos]

The caveat is that Messengers of God are not ordinary people so they are not fallible. They are infallible. If God spoke to a fallible human directly that person could not infallibly receive the message the way a Messenger can.

How can you possibly know such a thing? You don't have good evidence for this claim. At the end of the day, the messengers are humans so that shows that God can communicate with humans.

No, God cannot show up and appear to everyone and communicate with them like a normal person because God is not a person

So then why do most of your revealed religions describe God as a person and a personal being who we can know personally and communicate with directly? You're even in conflict with other Bahai's who claim to have been in direct contact with Him

It is completely irrelevant that God is all powerful, so hypothetically it would take him no effort to communicate with humans easily and effectively. An all powerful god only does what he wants to do, what he chooses to do, and you cannot order God around, tell Him what He should do, which is essentially what you are doing. This patently absurd, to tell an all powerful and all knowing God how He should communicate. I cannot even think of anything more ridiculous than that.

If God is a person He should be able to communicate with us directly, you even believe that you'll be in direct contact with God in the afterlife, so it shows that it is possible. If God loves you, he shouldn't have to tell you show through third party messengers, He would let you know directly and I'm not ordering anyone around, I'm just saying that logically speaking an all knowing being should know how to communicate directly with humans or being all powerful God should be able to create a way of directly communicating with humans if He doesn't know of one, so you were strawmanning my position and yes it is relevant.

Have you ever considered that your view of God is wrong and that he is a person who can and does communicate with humans? What if you're the one who's wrong?

Anyone can believe whatever they want to believe but that does not make it true. Normal people who claim to be in constant contact with God, some of whom would claim that God reached out to them are delusional, as far as I am concerned.

Of course they're delusional to you, because you've limited yourself to believe that God isn't personal. I'm sure you would seem delusional to them with your beliefs

No, the Messengers of God were not just normal people. Had they been normal people God would not have communicated to them.

If they're human, then they're normal people

God does not want to reach out to people and speak to them personally. God sends Messengers to speak to us. If people do not like the Messengers, that is their problem. It is no skin off God’s nose.

That's your own personal faith based belief. Other religious people believe differently, so who's right? That's why debating religion is useless, since it's based on circular reasoning, special pleading and subjective experience which can't be independently verified.

Who do you think you are that the Almighty God, the Creator of the heavens and the earth, should speak to you personally? Such an expectation is the epitome of arrogance. I am sorry if you cannot understand why this is the case.

Yet you believe He communicates with humans that you believe to be messengers, and once again you can't discount or disprove the personal experience of other believers who believe they were in contact with God, it seems like you're the one who's arrogant and prideful since you think you're right and everyone else is wrong. You are the epitome of arrogance.

 

[Jos]

There is some degree of truth to that, you cannot just make yourself believe, but that does not mean you cannot change. Since beliefs are according to what we think and understand, if we are willing to try to think and understand differently, beliefs can change. That is proven by the fact that nonbelievers have become believers, there are many of those on this forum. But if people are not willing to try to think and understand differently, they will not change. If they make up their minds that God should/would do x, y, or z if He exists instead of trying to ascertain what God might have actually done, then they will never move forward.

You should practice what you preach.

 

[Jos]

It's interesting that you mention the "Sun". Now Baha'is are a fairly practical religion. You might not know that by how some Baha'is talk here. But they believe science and religion should agree. That without science, religion can slip into believe weird superstitious things like dying and rising God/men like some religions do.

But, Baha'is say the Bible is true. That it is the Word of God... But the Bible says that God stopped the Sun in the sky for a whole day? So how can we convince our brains that something like that is true? And Baha'is, even though they say the Bible is true, would agree with you. So, even they, make adjustments to these so-called Scriptures of the Gods. They make special revisions to these books of the Gods. So, in the end, Baha'is make things that are unbelievable, believable. They do this by saying that stopping the Sun in the sky didn't literally happen. That there is a simple explanation to those things. They were meant to be "symbolic". With that the brain doesn't have to force itself to believe the wild and crazy stories in books like the Bible. The brain sees something out of the ordinary. It just thinks, "Oh yeah, Baha'is told all those things aren't to be taken literally. They are symbolic."

So no more should you be bothered with the things that are said in the Holy Books of all the other religions. Now all you have to do is convince your brain into believing all the wild and crazy things that Baha'is say in their Holy Books.

That's one of the biggest problems with religions, everyone picks and chooses what they like and interpret things however they want to, to suit their own agendas.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

How can you possibly know such a thing? You don't have good evidence for this claim. At the end of the day, the messengers are humans so that shows that God can communicate with humans.


So then why do most of your revealed religions describe God as a person and a personal being who we can know personally and communicate with directly? You're even in conflict with other Bahai's who claim to have been in direct contact with Him


If God is a person He should be able to communicate with us directly, you even believe that you'll be in direct contact with God in the afterlife, so it shows that it is possible. If God loves you, he shouldn't have to tell you show through third party messengers, He would let you know directly and I'm not ordering anyone around, I'm just saying that logically speaking an all knowing being should know how to communicate directly with humans or being all powerful God should be able to create a way of directly communicating with humans if He doesn't know of one, so you were strawmanning my position and yes it is relevant.

Have you ever considered that your view of God is wrong and that he is a person who can and does communicate with humans? What if you're the one who's wrong?


Of course they're delusional to you, because you've limited yourself to believe that God isn't personal. I'm sure you would seem delusional to them with your beliefs


If they're human, then they're normal people


That's your own personal faith based belief. Other religious people believe differently, so who's right? That's why debating religion is useless, since it's based on circular reasoning, special pleading and subjective experience which can't be independently verified.


Yet you believe He communicates with humans that you believe to be messengers, and once again you can't discount or disprove the personal experience of other believers who believe they were in contact with God, it seems like you're the one who's arrogant and prideful since you think you're right and everyone else is wrong. You are the epitome of arrogance.

If this god can communicate with one person he can communicate with everyone. He's a god after all.

Religious people want it both ways because it suits them.

God is infallible, great, created the Earth in 6 days, loves us, wants us to follow him, etc. But can't be bothered to put in a personal appearance and sends messengers who aren't very effective and communicates through them. But they refuse to tell us how god communicates with them.

The strange art of a conman.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

Many prophets talk about the blinding obvious and call it a revelation from god.

For instance, it would be great if we all lived in peace, ages start and finish, we should take heed of science. The blindingly obvious.

Their problem is telling us we all live in peace, what age is going to start and finish and why we should believe science over the ramblings of Bronze Age men. Who were told god created the Earth in 6 days, stopped the sun, flooded the entire world and killed everything but what was in the Ark, etc.

 

[Truthseeker]

Well, part of the problem is I think some people don't trust religions anymore. And the Baha'i Faith, being a religion, has to deal with that. Why should people trust that what Baha'is say is true? And Baha'is agree. Baha'is expect people to check it out for themselves. And part of that is to see how Baha'is act and live their lives. And how is the Baha'i Faith working in their communities? Not all Baha'is are very active. Some are active, but not necessarily in a good way. Some are awesome. Same with Baha'i communities. Some aren't very active. Some are active but not in a good way. Some are awesome.

No, I think that when for instance Jesus says "you shall know them by their fruits" He is not talking about the followers at a later time but about the effect a Messenger has on those around them. I would recommend getting The Revelation of Baha'u'llah by Adib Taherzadeh. Here is a link to all four volumes:

https://www.bahaibookstore.com/Search.aspx?k=The+Revelation+of+Baha'u'llah

It describes the tablets by Baha'u'llah, some not translated into English yet, but for me it is the contextualized history that is so impressive. There were spiritual giants that were around Baha'u'llah. Baha'u'llah said this:

There can be no doubt whatever that, in consequence of the efforts which every man may consciously exert and as a result of the exertion of his own spiritual faculties, this mirror can be so cleansed from the dross of earthly defilements and purged from satanic fancies as to be able to draw nigh unto the meads of eternal holiness and attain the courts of everlasting fellowship. In pursuance, however, of the principle that for every thing a time hath been fixed, and for every fruit a season hath been ordained, the latent energies of such a bounty can best be released, and the vernal glory of such a gift can only be manifested, in the Days of God. Invested though each day may be with its preordained share of God’s wondrous grace, the Days immediately associated with the Manifestation of God possess a unique distinction and occupy a station which no mind can ever comprehend. Such is the virtue infused into them that if the hearts of all that dwell in the heavens and the earth were, in those days of everlasting delight, to be brought face to face with that Daystar of unfading glory and attuned to His Will, each would find itself exalted above all earthly things, radiant with His light, and sanctified through His grace.

Bahá’u’lláh, "Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh", 124.3

 

[Trailblazer]

I was after a simple answer to a simple question, how do the messengers from god communicate with god?

They do not communicate with God, God communicates to them, through the Holy Spirit. How that happens is not something we ordinary humans can understand because it is beyond our ability to understand.

 

[Trailblazer]

So how does this living in peace work if some choose to get more by exploiting the weak?

People will not be trying to exploit the weak in the future. There will be a new race of men different from what we see now.

But the universality of the Message of Bahá’u’lláh and the forces of new life released by Him within the individual, have given birth to a new race of men who have acquired a new vision and the will to think independently and act with purpose.

Adib Taherzadeh, The Revelation of Bahá’u’lláh v 2, p. 252

He amply demonstrated the power of Bahá’u’lláh Who, through a single word, had created a new race of men, and instilled into them such faith that they became the embodiments of these words: 'And be thou so steadfast in My love that thy heart shall not waver, even if the swords of the enemies rain blows upon thee and all the heavens and the earth arise against thee.

Adib Taherzadeh, The Revelation of Bahá’u’lláh v 2, p. 135

With the establishment of the Most Great Peace and the spiritualization of the peoples of the world, man will become a noble being adorned with divine virtues and perfections. This is one of the fruits of the Revelation of Bahá’u’lláh, promised by Him. The nobility of man and his spiritual development will lead him in the future to such a position that no individual could enjoy eating his food or resting at home while knowing that there was one person somewhere in the world without food or shelter. It is Bahá’u’lláh's mission to create such a new race of men.

Adib Taherzadeh, The Revelation of Bahá’u’lláh v 3, p. 126

New Race of Men | Bahá’í Quotes

 

[Trailblazer]

So where does Baha predict the end of America?

Baha'u'llah did not predict the end of America. He predicted that America would go through a crisis.

AMERICA PASSING THROUGH CRISIS​

Moreover, the country of which it forms a part is passing through a crisis which, in its spiritual, moral, social and political aspects, is of extreme seriousness—a seriousness which to a superficial observer is liable to be dangerously underestimated.

The steady and alarming deterioration in the standard of morality as exemplified by the appalling increase of crime, by political corruption in ever widening and ever higher circles, by the loosening of the sacred ties of marriage, by the inordinate craving for pleasure and diversion, and by the marked and progressive slackening of parental control, is no doubt the most arresting and distressing aspect of the decline that has set in, and can be clearly perceived, in the fortunes of the entire nation.

Parallel with this, and pervading all departments of life—an evil which the nation, and indeed all those within the capitalist system, though to a lesser degree, share with that state and its satellites regarded as the sworn enemies of that system—is the crass materialism, which lays excessive and ever-increasing emphasis on material well-being, forgetful of those things of the spirit on which alone a sure and stable foundation can be laid for human society. It is this same cancerous materialism, born originally in Europe, carried to excess in the North American continent, contaminating the Asiatic peoples and nations, spreading its ominous tentacles to the borders of Africa, and now invading its very heart, which Bahá’u’lláh in unequivocal and emphatic language denounced in His Writings, comparing it to a devouring flame and regarding it as the chief factor in precipitating the dire ordeals and world-shaking crises that must necessarily involve the burning of cities and the spread of terror and consternation in the hearts of men. Indeed a foretaste of the devastation which this consuming fire will wreak upon the world, and with which it will lay waste the cities of the nations participating in this tragic world-engulfing contest, has been afforded by the last World War, marking the second stage in the global havoc which humanity, forgetful of its God and heedless of the clear warnings uttered by His appointed Messenger for this day, must, alas, inevitably experience. It is this same all-pervasive, pernicious materialism against which the voice of the Center of Bahá’u’lláh’s Covenant was raised, with pathetic persistence, from platform and pulpit, in His addresses to the heedless multitudes, which, on the morrow of His fateful visit to both Europe and America, found themselves suddenly swept into the vortex of a tempest which in its range and severity was unsurpassed in the world’s history.

Collateral with this ominous laxity in morals, and this progressive stress laid on man’s material pursuits and well-being, is the darkening of the political horizon, as witnessed by the widening of the gulf separating the protagonists of two antagonistic schools of thought which, however divergent in their ideologies, are to be commonly condemned by the upholders of the standard of the Faith of Bahá’u’lláh for their materialistic philosophies and their neglect of those spiritual values and eternal verities on which alone a stable and flourishing civilization can be ultimately established. The multiplication, the diversity and the increasing destructive power of armaments to which both sides, in this world contest, caught in a whirlpool of fear, suspicion and hatred, are rapidly contributing; the outbreak of two successive bloody conflicts, entangling still further the American nation in the affairs of a distracted world, entailing a considerable loss in blood and treasure, swelling the national budget and progressively depreciating the currency of the state; the confusion, the vacillation, the suspicions besetting the European and Asiatic nations in their attitude to the American nation; the overwhelming accretion of strength to the arch enemy of the system championed by the American Union in consequence of the re-alignment of the powers in the Asiatic continent and particularly in the Far East—these have, moreover, contributed their share, in recent years, to the deterioration of a situation which, if not remedied, is bound to involve the American nation in a catastrophe of undreamed-of dimensions and of untold consequences to the social structure, the standard and conception of the American people and government.

No less serious is the stress and strain imposed on the fabric of American society through the fundamental and persistent neglect, by the governed and governors alike, of the supreme, the inescapable and urgent duty—so repeatedly and graphically represented and stressed by ‘Abdu’l-Bahá in His arraignment of the basic weaknesses in the social fabric of the nation—of remedying, while there is yet time, through a revolutionary change in the concept and attitude of the average white American toward his Negro fellow citizen, a situation which, if allowed to drift, will, in the words of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, cause the streets of American cities to run with blood, aggravating thereby the havoc which the fearful weapons of destruction, raining from the air, and amassed by a ruthless, a vigilant, a powerful and inveterate enemy, will wreak upon those same cities.

The American nation, of which the community of the Most Great Name forms as yet a negligible and infinitesimal part, stands, indeed, from whichever angle one observes its immediate fortunes, in grave peril. The woes and tribulations which threaten it are partly avoidable, but mostly inevitable and God-sent, for by reason of them a government and people clinging tenaciously to the obsolescent doctrine of absolute sovereignty and upholding a political system, manifestly at variance with the needs of a world already contracted into a neighborhood and crying out for unity, will find itself purged of its anachronistic conceptions, and prepared to play a preponderating role, as foretold by ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, in the hoisting of the standard of the Lesser Peace, in the unification of mankind, and in the establishment of a world federal government on this planet. These same fiery tribulations will not only firmly weld the American nation to its sister nations in both hemispheres, but will through their cleansing effect, purge it thoroughly of the accumulated dross which ingrained racial prejudice, rampant materialism, widespread ungodliness and moral laxity have combined, in the course of successive generations, to produce, and which have prevented her thus far from assuming the role of world spiritual leadership forecast by ‘Abdu’l-Bahá’s unerring pen—a role which she is bound to fulfill through travail and sorrow.

Citadel of Faith, pp. 124-127

 

[Trailblazer]

Where does Baha predict the end of America?

Baha'u'llah did not predict that. Please see my previous post.

 

[Trailblazer]

So you see where science proves the bible writers didn't have a clue.

That is true if you are referring to Genesis.

Telling the people they were messengers from god and not having the right information proves god is a liar or they're liars. They had no message from god.

The Bible writers had no message from God because they were not Messengers of God.

 

[Trailblazer]

You should practice what you preach.

And you know that I don't exactly HOW?

66: O EMIGRANTS! The tongue I have designed for the mention of Me, defile it not with detraction. If the fire of self overcome you, remember your own faults and not the faults of My creatures, inasmuch as every one of you knoweth his own self better than he knoweth others.

The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 45

 

[Trailblazer]

If this god can communicate with one person he can communicate with everyone. He's a god after all.

He could if He wanted to, but obviously He does not want to.
Whatcha gonna do about it? YOU have no power over an omnipotent God.

“Say: He ordaineth as He pleaseth, by virtue of His sovereignty, and doeth whatsoever He willeth at His own behest. He shall not be asked of the things it pleaseth Him to ordain. He, in truth, is the Unrestrained, the All-Powerful, the All-Wise.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p, 284

P.S. Everyone does not deserve to hear from God, and that is one reason God does not communicate to everyone, but not the only reason.

 

[Trailblazer]

God is infallible, great, created the Earth in 6 days, loves us, wants us to follow him, etc. But can't be bothered to put in a personal appearance and sends messengers who aren't very effective and communicates through them.

You are darn right that God cannot be bothered with the likes of humans who complain about Him and order Him around incessantly, as if He was their short order cook.

And it is hilarious how atheists who say they are logical cannot even figure out why they cannot tell an omnipotent God what to do and why they think they know more than an omniscient God regarding how He should communicate to humans.

Regarding logic, God cannot put in a personal appearance because God is not a person.

 

[Jos]

Regarding logic, God cannot put in a personal appearance because God is not a person.

There you go again asserting things with no evidence to back it up. Don't the personal experiences of other believers who claim to have had direct contact with God at least plant a little doubt in your mind about assuming that God isn't personal? Also God would have to be a person in order to communicate with the messengers... how can a non personal being communicate anything?