Charlie Hebdo to attack Muslims again

[Spirit of Light]

I think that you need to remember something: the west has an huge tradition of using cartoons to make points. You can see this in cartooning about the British Monarchy from the Hanovers (beginning in 1714) all the up to the present monarch, Queen Elizabeth II. Some of them have been wickedly funny, and very unflattering the monarch.

The problem is, Muslims do not appear to have such a tradition (for so long, not even using pictorial representation in decorating their public building, like the Alhambra and Generalife in Grenada, Spain). It is also true that the Judeo-Christian world has a bibilical injunction AGAINST any sort of pictorial (graven) image, which they ignore totally.

Unfortunately, when two quite different cultures clash, there are few ways to get past some of the major differences -- one culture can simply give up its own traditions (in which that culture dies), they can fight it out (which could result in one or both of them dying, but usually just costs a lot of lives), or they can live their own way while having the grace to let the other do exactly the same. Thus, for Muslims in the west who think that cartoons of prophets (or of Jesus, which are all over the place) are bad -- then they ought not draw them. But why worry if somebody else, who doesn't share that religious prohibition, have to follow suit?

It is, by the way, always wrong to move yourself into another culture -- and then insist that culture change itself to suit you. If you don't like what's happening in Turkey, you'd be daft to move to Istanbul. If you don't like the French sense of humour, then stay the heck out of Paris -- it's full of French people, you know.

You do have some good points here @Evangelicalhumanist, I am born and raised in Norway, but I have never felt Norwegian. I am not "proud" of our culture, I always searched for other cultures, other nationalities, and in the times I traveled in middle east, it was a nice experience. Except for when a few people mistaken me for being American that was unpleasant until I show them my passport saying I am Norwegian. Then all was good.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

You are right I do support that, except for death penalty

Blasphemy laws show a terrible weakness and outright fear of words. This is not to be supported, lauded, respected or even tolerated. Words are nothing unless you give them power. Guns, on the other hand? Guns do damage no matter who you are or what you think of them. Words are not like this. Anyone who thinks differently is weak in principle, and likely extremely cowardly (or at the very least - insecure) in addition.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Blasphemy laws show a terrible weakness and outright fear of words. This is not to be supported, lauded, respected or even tolerated. Words are nothing unless you give them power. Guns, on the other hand? Guns do damage no matter who you are or what you think of them. Words are not like this. Anyone who thinks differently is weak in principle, and likely extremely cowardly (or at the very least - insecure) in addition.

You can call me weak, it does not change my understanding.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

You can call me weak, it does not change my understanding.

Then you have not let my words affect you. That is a start. Good for you. And thank you for helping me establish the end results of adhering to and practicing the advice implicit in my point. Do not let words (or pictures - for God's sake) "harm" you. Do not. I assure you all it is an entirely simple exercise once you have made up your mind.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Beliefs inform actions.

Islam does not espouse terrorism and suicide bombings. That's not part of the religion.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

You do have some good points here @Evangelicalhumanist, I am born and raised in Norway, but I have never felt Norwegian. I am not "proud" of our culture, I always searched for other cultures, other nationalities, and in the times I traveled in middle east, it was a nice experience. Except for when a few people mistaken me for being American that was unpleasant until I show them my passport saying I am Norwegian. Then all was good.

I'm not attributing this quality to you, but would you agree that with the modern Left, there are probably good social reasons for Islam to be appealing. The general religion seems to represent a hard argument against atomization, which occurred after the separation from the Catholic church. The left wants to search for ways to live that applicable to everyone. It therefore keeps Islam as a possible suitor, despite the Left's contemporary optics

 

[Spirit of Light]

I'm not attributing this quality to you, but would you agree that with the modern Left, there are probably good social reasons for Islam to be appealing. The general religion seems to represent a hard argument against atomization, which occurred after the separation from the Catholic church. The left wants to search for ways to live that applicable to everyone.

I can not say that I know enough about Islam yet to give a very good answer, but I see Islam in it self as a peaceful teaching, but that some people do not follow it in a peaceful way is not the fault of Islam, that is an human fault.
As far as I have read in the Qur'an and the Sunnah I find a lot of good

 

[FearGod]

I think that you need to remember something: the west has an huge tradition of using cartoons to make points. You can see this in cartooning about the British Monarchy from the Hanovers (beginning in 1714) all the up to the present monarch, Queen Elizabeth II. Some of them have been wickedly funny, and very unflattering the monarch.

The problem is, Muslims do not appear to have such a tradition (for so long, not even using pictorial representation in decorating their public building, like the Alhambra and Generalife in Grenada, Spain). It is also true that the Judeo-Christian world has a bibilical injunction AGAINST any sort of pictorial (graven) image, which they ignore totally.

Unfortunately, when two quite different cultures clash, there are few ways to get past some of the major differences -- one culture can simply give up its own traditions (in which that culture dies), they can fight it out (which could result in one or both of them dying, but usually just costs a lot of lives), or they can live their own way while having the grace to let the other do exactly the same. Thus, for Muslims in the west who think that cartoons of prophets (or of Jesus, which are all over the place) are bad -- then they ought not draw them. But why worry if somebody else, who doesn't share that religious prohibition, have to follow suit?

It is, by the way, always wrong to move yourself into another culture -- and then insist that culture change itself to suit you. If you don't like what's happening in Turkey, you'd be daft to move to Istanbul. If you don't like the French sense of humour, then stay the heck out of Paris -- it's full of French people, you know.

Respecting each other is the best choice, different cultures can live in one place as long
as all respecting each other, but creating hate between cultures and making divisions is the bad choice.

 

[ppp]

Islam does not espouse terrorism and suicide bombings. That's not part of the religion.

Like Christianity, Islam is a collection of contradictory beliefs with believers all pointing at each other shouting, No True Scotsman! It does not matter what you or I think that the actual Islam actually is. It only matters what the system of beliefs produces in real effects on real people. The good and the bad.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Like Christianity, Islam is a collection of contradictory beliefs with believers all pointing at each other shouting, No True Scotsman! It does not matter what you or I think that the actual Islam actually is. It only matters what the system of beliefs produces in real effects on real people. The good and the bad.

Er, no. Religions have these things called teachings and doctrines that we can observe over history to see if a theological viewpoint was ever normal.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Respecting each other is the best choice, different cultures can live in one place as long
as all respecting each other, but creating hate between cultures and making divisions is the bad choice.

Well, expand on that. If Charlie Hebdo creates a cartoon for its own audience (which is not, believe me, a Muslim audience), is that creating hate between cultures?

Or if a Muslim decides to read Charlie Hebdo -- knowing in advance that they like to poke cartoon fun at just about everything, including religion -- is he making a choice designed to get himself angry enough to want to take revenge? Could he not, out of respect for that other culture, just leave it to them?

Or is he correct to say, "anything that is forbidden in my culture, or my religion, should be forbidden to you, too?"

 

[ppp]

Er, no. Religions have these things called teachings and doctrines that we can observe over history to see if a theological viewpoint was ever normal.

LOL. A "normative" defense? You guys have been beating the stuffing out of each other over "theological viewpoint" ever since your respective religions were incepted. Not to mention your long brutal and protracted internecine fighting across those same centuries. And your assorted institutional support of chattel slavery and serf slavery and child warriors and witch burnings and blood libel and genital mutilation and death/castration of homosexuals and demonization of contraception, [drinks water], stoning rape victims, anti-choice, anti-suffrage, institutional hiding of pederasts, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

Yes. I know about the hospitals, and the universities, and the orphanages (which could go on either list) and 1800-year-late abolition movement.

Normal.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Wrong, humour can be educational, and it is a much softer way to learn by being prepared to laugh at yourself when you err than finding out the hard way that you have made a mistake.

Edward De Bono wrote extensively about the importance of humour, and the relationship between humour, creativity and lateral thinking in terms of being able to consider things in different ways.

He was relatively dismissive of 'reason', incidentally, seeing it as lower order thinking. Whilst important, it adds less value.

A quote of his I've always liked...

It has always surprised me how little attention philosophers have paid to humour, since it is a more significant process of mind than reason. Reason can only sort out perceptions, but the humour process is involved in changing them.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

LOL. A "normative" defense? You guys have been beating the stuffing out of each other over "theological viewpoint" ever since your respective religions were incepted. Not to mention your long brutal and protracted internecine fighting across those same centuries. And your assorted institutional support of chattel slavery and serf slavery and child warriors and witch burnings and blood libel and genital mutilation and death/castration of homosexuals and demonization of contraception, [drinks water], stoning rape victims, anti-choice, anti-suffrage, institutional hiding of pederasts, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

Yes. I know about the hospitals, and the universities, and the orphanages (which could go on either list) and 1800-year-late abolition movement.

Normal.

You're literally just throwing a bunch of random stuff at me that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with religion. I get it, you hate religion and blah blah blah. I'm not interested in that.

 

[stvdv]

If you, or anyone else, are too soft, and you cannot take it, you should leave.

I call the West heart here and the Middle East hard

 

[stvdv]

A Spirituality person will not worry about Name and Form others use

Hence I would not call Muslims who do, Spiritual

Especially Muslims should know better

That is exactly what Islam is about

Focus on Allah and Allah alone

Not on Name/Form

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Oh, now I know why they're reprinting them. A trial for the murders is about to begin, and they're reprinting them so people understand why and also doing a memorial: Charlie Hebdo to reprint controversial cartoons as terror trial begins - CNN

That's understandable.

 

[ppp]

You're literally just throwing a bunch of random stuff at me that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with religion.

I am literally throwing a bunch of pointed stuff at you that is only marginally related to religion in general, but specifically implemented by the adherents of Islam and/or Christianity at an institutional level.

Are they the only source of these social ills? No. Of course not. Definitely not. Absolutely not.

But they are a source. And considering the vast range of their respective scopes and cultural influence. A significant one.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I am literally throwing a bunch of pointed stuff at you that is only marginally related to religion in general, but specifically implemented by the adherents of Islam and/or Christianity at an institutional level.

Are they the only source of these social ills? No. Of course not. Definitely not. Absolutely not.

But they are a source. And considering the vast range of their respective scopes and cultural influence. A significant one.

Most of the things you rattled off have nothing to do with religion itself, like chattel slavery and child soldiers. Those things are all bound up in political and cultural climates, and are usually found in collapsed states. Can't say religion was the actual cause.

 

[ppp]

Most of the things you rattled off have nothing to do with religion itself, like chattel slavery and child soldiers. Those things are all bound up in political and cultural climates, and are usually found in collapsed states. Can't say religion was the actual cause.

As I will remind you...again and again if need be...I am not talking about religion in general, but about Christianity and Islam specifically.

That being said, religions are political and cultural beliefs about the purpose of (at the least) humans, our place/role in that-which-exists (however that might be defined), and how we should structure our societies and relate to one another. Religions are political parties with a purported mystical/spiritual/magical/deific/whateveryouwanttocalit component.