Is Faith Evidence of Things Not Seen?

[Evangelicalhumanist]

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

I started thinking that this might be the perfect example of a "deepity," (defined by D. Dennett as "a proposition that seems to be profound because it is actually logically ill-formed. It has (at least) two readings and balances precariously between them. On one reading it is true but trivial. And on another reading it is false, but would be earth-shattering if true. "

But it is not even that. It is, as @Valjean said, "poetic gibberish," meant to inspire but lacking any real meaning. That which is merely hoped for has no substance at all, until the hope is realized. And that which is not seen means, in this reading, "unevidenced." Thus, the verse is simply a contradiction trying to sound profound.

 

[robocop (actually)]

But faith is not even vaguely scientific. So you don't have that. As for satisfying, I will give you that. But you have no way to determine whether your faith produces morality, immorality or amorality. Faith is no better than rolling dice.

I have the right to free exercise of religion, meaning I can use it in the public square.

Faith may not be scientific, but it is another form of reasoning that should be in harmony with science.

Please read Alma 32 from the Book of Mormon if you want good arguments, especially starting from vs. 17: Alma 32

Morality is something anyone can tell, so faith can be tested to see if it's working.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Faith alone does not prove anything to other then you self every spiritual development begins with faith, then the more one cultivate mind and body, the more wisdom arise from the teaching, and in my understanding the faith is more and more confirmed on a personal level.

What others would take it as, isn't that important, spiritual practice is a personal journey.

If a believer said, I see God in this stone, the first thing a non believer would ask is, why, how, prove it to me.
But it is personal experience, should be go around proving everything personal to us, because others can not see the same as we do?

Okay, but what else would you grant to this person that they might "see in this stone?" The future? Your future? (Hey, a crystal ball is just a stone, right?)

 

[Kenny]

And even if it does not manifest, you know it was for your own good, because God knows more than we know what is for our own good, since God is All-Knowing and All-Wise and we are not.

“Know thou, O fruit of My Tree, that the decrees of the Sovereign Ordainer, as related to fate and predestination, are of two kinds. Both are to be obeyed and accepted. The one is irrevocable, the other is, as termed by men, impending. To the former all must unreservedly submit, inasmuch as it is fixed and settled. God, however, is able to alter or repeal it. As the harm that must result from such a change will be greater than if the decree had remained unaltered, all, therefore, should willingly acquiesce in what God hath willed and confidently abide by the same.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 133

That would applicable in a few areas but, in my view, not all.

If our prayer is hindered by unforgiveness, then it not manifesting still wouldn't be God's fault. I think, more often that not, when it is a covenant promise given by the Cross, we need to look more on our side than God's.

On other areas, like desires, that your point would be valid. IMO

 

[ppp]

I have the right to free exercise of religion, meaning I can use it in the public square.

What is the relevance of this statement to our conversation? This is as obvious as, "Water is wet."

 

[Trailblazer]

Is that poetic?

Kind of, and there is a lot more where that came from.

A messenger being what?

A Manifestation of God who manifests God in the flesh and brings a message from God.

 

[Trailblazer]

If our prayer is hindered by unforgiveness, then it not manifesting still wouldn't be God's fault. I think, more often that not, when it is a covenant promise given by the Cross, we need to look more on our side than God's.

What do you mean by that? Do you mean that God would answer all our prayers under certain conditions?

I do not see how that would be logically possible because prayers of some people would conflict with prayers of other people.

 

[ppp]

Faith may not be scientific, but it is another form of reasoning that should be in harmony with science.

I don't see any evidence that faith is a reliable form of reasoning. There is no position that one could not take based on faith.

Morality is something anyone can tell, so faith can be tested to see if it's working.

That is a false statement. People of different religions come to contradictory conclusions on morality based on faith.

 

[robocop (actually)]

What is the relevance of this statement to our conversation? This is as obvious as, "Water is wet."

People in America are fighting against people exercising their religion in the public square. Take the statues of Founding Fathers being removed, the cake for a gay marriage, and just people being very antagonistic to it for instance.

 

[ppp]

A Manifestation of God who manifests God in the flesh and brings a message from God.

If you don't wish to communicate, I am not going to try to force you to do so.

 

[robocop (actually)]

I don't see any evidence that faith is a reliable form of reasoning. There is no position that one could not take based on faith.


That is a false statement. People of different religions come to contradictory conclusions on morality based on faith.

You didn't read my chapter did you?

People of different religions come to different conclusions, but everyone knows in themselves right and wrong.

 

[Trailblazer]

If you don't wish to communicate, I am not going to try to force you to do so.

I have no idea what you mean.

 

[Kenny]

What do you mean by that? Do you mean that God would answer all our prayers under certain conditions?

I do not see how that would be logically possible because prayers of some people would conflict with prayers of other people.

Well, let me say it differently... sorry for the lack of clarity.

In Christian a Christian view of course, let me give some example that hopefully will make it clearer.

God doesn't want anyone to perish but all to come to everlasting life. A prayer of salvation will never come short of being answered. It's a covenant promise.

Now, one person praying for no rain so that they can have a wedding. Another person praying for rain so they don't have to use water to water their grass. Neither is a covenant promise. Probability, nature will just take its course.

Finally, a person is praying for a new job based on "delight yourself in the Lord and He will give you the desires of your heart". He might just say "No problem but I want you to stay there and extra year because I want to teach you some things and I want you to touch another life".

Does that help? Hope so.

 

[ppp]

People in America are fighting against people exercising their religion in the public square. Take the statues of Founding Fathers being removed

You are vague in your accusations. Which founding father and why and what is the name of the person or group?

the cake for a gay marriage

I grew up in a town of about 6000 people, where most of the people, including my family, were of Christian denomination A. There was one florist shop whose owners were also of denomination A. A woman of Christian denomination B went to buy flowers for her wedding. When the owner found out that the woman was of denomination B, the owner refused to do business with her. Do you think that is appropriate behavior?

 

[ppp]

I have no idea what you mean.

A Manifestation of God who manifests God in the flesh and brings a message from God.

Manifestation of God == ?
God in the flesh == ?

 

[Trailblazer]

Does that help? Hope so.

Yes, and I agree with all of that.
God does not want anyone to perish.

 

[robocop (actually)]

You are vague in your accusations. Which founding father and why and what is the name of the person or group?


I grew up in a town of about 6000 people, where most of the people, including my family, were of Christian denomination A. There was one florist shop whose owners were also of denomination A. A woman of Christian denomination B went to buy flowers for her wedding. When the owner found out that the woman was of denomination B, the owner refused to do business with her. Do you think that is appropriate behavior?

It just shows that people are attacking people from trying to freely exercise their religions in the public square. Religions, like the freedom of the press, are supposed to breed competition, but some people want to shut them down.

 

[Trailblazer]

A Manifestation of God who manifests God in the flesh and brings a message from God.

Manifestation of God == ?
God in the flesh == ?

I guess you want the full description of a Manifestation of God? Okay,here is one description:

Messengers of God, what Baha’is normally refer to as Manifestations of God, possess two stations: one is the physical station pertaining to the world of matter, and the other is the spiritual station, born of the substance of God. In other words, one station is that of a human being, and one, of the Divine Reality. It is because they possess both a human and a divine station that they can act as *mediators* between God and man.

Every Manifestation of God is a mirror of God, reflecting God’s Self, God’s Beauty, God’s Might and Glory. All other human beings are to be regarded as mirrors capable of reflecting the glory of these Manifestations Who are themselves the Primary Mirrors of the Divine Being,

The Manifestations of God are another order of creation above an ordinary man. They possess a universal divine mind that is different than ours and that is why God only speaks to them directly and through Them God communicates to humanity.

 

[Willamena]

Depending on your favorite translation, Hebrews 11:1 reads:

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

Some religious folks believe that their faith itself is evidence that what they have faith in is actually true. This is particularly the case, it seems, when it comes to supernatural claims or ones that don't have good evidence for them.

In my view, this is a manifestly absurd and circular position. People believe all kinds of things, some true, some untrue. The fact that I believe, for example, that the world is flat, is not evidence that I'm correct about that.

Do you believe faith is the evidence of things not seen? Why or why not?

I think it's a fine, poetic definition. Of course, there's nothing that can be said of those who think that evidence is proof. Evidence is a finger pointing at the moon, not the moon itself. It leaves room for doubt.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Faith may not be scientific, but it is another form of reasoning that should be in harmony with science.

I don't see that at all. Faith is not a "form of reasoning," in that it is acceptance without reason. To be "in harmony with science" seems to suggest that it should be able to do what science does -- that is, to provide results that can somehow be verified, and I have never seen the faith that could stand up to that test.

In fact, I think that if faith were a "form of reasoning," then it ought to be much easier to convince others of the the truth or value of that faith, but simply providing the reasons for it. To this day, and after much dialogue over decades, nobody has ever provided anything that appeared like "reason" for their faith to me. Maybe I'm just particularly dense, but I don't think so.