Man to Man... or Woman

[Shadow Wolf]

I never claimed that anything was illegitimate.

I'm just not about to assume that every source is legitimate.

Exactly. You did upfront dismiss the source as not legitimate.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Great! So I'll repeat my question in line with your understanding ... Since the natural laws are not random, and subject to chanced occurrences (which by the way would rule out evolutionary ideas), how did they become fixed, and unalterable, so that everything works according to, or based on those laws?

We are as of now, to my best knowledgen unsure of those exact details. We just know Newtonian physics do an excellent job at predicting the world and cosmos around us.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I appreciate your effort here and the attitude with which you addressed my concerns.

No problem.

Anyways - I mean no offense at all - because I appreciate your effort and I don’t want to stifle you - but I believe that you have made a lot of assumptions here and you’ve come to some illogical conclusions.

Basically - to me - the underlying premise of what you have said can be summed up as,

“The only reason you don’t agree with the “gender identity” narrative is because you have not been indoctrinated enough.”

I will get into that in more depth as I address your comments directly - but I want to first share my belief with you that I shared in my initial response to the OP - which has caused all of this “commotion”.

Hm. Yeah. I ran into people who have opinions about a lot of things they don't understand-in the manner that their oppositions make sense to what they are disagreeing with. Not a lot of people, and myself, no too much about human sexuality and gender identity without relating it to what they see in the mirror. Maybe still holding on to the aftermath of our (US) histories.

As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints I believe that all human beings are the literal spirit children of God and that our very spirits are engendered - male and female - making us His sons and daughters.

Therefore - my opinion concerning “gender” revolves around that concept. The Family: A Proclamation to the World states,

“Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.”

If gender are these essential characteristics, how do we know these characteristics soley based on a person's sex?

If a non-believer came and asked you a person's eternal identity and purpose, would you say it depends on whether they are male or female?

I would need to deny my own religious beliefs - and I will not do that - even if there were compelling scientific evidence - which there is not.

I think there is a lot of scientific evidence, but if they were, I wouldn't think it matters if your beliefs are primary to that. I find it unsettling but many christians do have morals that aren't congruent to scientific and medical practices. I can't imagine seeing the year 2020 in the eyes of the BC period.

I also believe that everyone - including myself - is free to believe what they would and to share their opinions whenever and with whomever they want.

Before I begin I warn you that I operate in a rather brusque manner - not with the intent to offend - but to save time, effort and with the hopes of being clear.

It's more like if I came to you and said I hated christ, or even more people who believe in christ is all in their heads, it would have a personal affect on you from one degree to another. While differences of opinion is fine, it kind of hits the core of who you are if I were to compare your relationship with christ being "just in your head." It's the same for a person's identity, orientation, and other like characteristics that contribute to Who we are.

A person does not gain any special insight or ability in understanding the “gender identity” narrative by being transgender.

That would be like claiming only black people have the insight or ability to understand racism.

We don't have the experience of being transgender. But we can gain insight and ability to understand it by talking to the people who have it. Nurses may not experience the ills of a dying patient but depending on their relationship, may gain better insight into what their patient is going through. It's hard to do that with education but I personally believe to form an logical opinion a person would have to gain some insight and understanding on what's being discussed....

Most of the transgender people I know don’t even buy into the narrative. They just do what they believe is best for them.

I grew up and went to University in Southern California - I have become very familiar with the “gender identity” narrative during that time - most of the people who tried to convince me of the truthfulness of this narrative were not themselves transgender.

This narrative is not new to me. I have had considerable time to understand it and reject it.

They tried to convince you?

I think the activism, people, and stereotypes more than likely kind of influenced your opinion on the issue rather than the science behind it. Kind of like judging christianity by the christians one talks to.

People of every ilk - be they the majority or the minority - have preconceived notions about everyone.

It’s not a one-way street.

I don’t believe I have been “mean” on this thread - but operated from a position of justified indignation.

The bulk of my contentions have not even been about transgenderism or the “gender identity” narrative - but about my right to have and share my opinion.

If those who I have engaged with on this thread respected my right to share my opinion and had no desire to rob me of my rights - our conversation would be just peachy.

I think it's probably this way cause of the threat topic.

I cannot view hypocritical people - who share their own opinion while maintaining that others shouldn’t - in anything but a “negative light”.

Then when you add their tendency to call me names and accuse me of committing crimes...

I also just cannot agree with the “gender identity” narrative and sharing my opinion and relevant facts to explain my reasons for doing so is not being “mean” IMHO.

I don't understand about gender identity myself. My confusion with your point of view is how you see gender and sex the same (right?). That or gender is a made up word?

Do you think we can tell the difference between a male and female by the essential characteristics you mentioned above alone?

I would still consider myself to be a son of God - therefore male - because I believe that my spirit is male.

Not to mention the genetics.

Hmm.... Forgive the comparison. Think of spirit as gender. What makes your spirit male and/or how does your physical gender define or determine your spirit as a male?

I cannot believe that our biological sex is separated from our identity.

I also have seen no evidence that anyone should.

Read too slow.

When you say this its like your defining who we are by our biological sex but saying your spirit is male. Our biological sex decomposes when we die, so what does it mean to be a male spirit?


.........

 

[Unveiled Artist]

................

You couldn’t tell from what has been said in this thread.

I have been told that since I cannot know exactly which appendage is present - then I cannot make any claim about which appendage cannot be present.

Which defies reason.

It's a fallacy to ignorance. It's the same lines of saying if you're not black how can you form an opinion about being black.

If you're defining gender by what people tell you and the narrative, then it does look like ignorance to be honest. If you did it after knowing gender, sex, identity, treatments, etc from a medical perspective, you may still disagree but at least understanding what you disagree with.

For example, if you don't see gender and sex different than how can you understand what it means for one's gender (or spirit) to not be aligned with one's biological sex? (Without going by the "narrative"-kind of reminds me of hearing people say the homosexual agenda. It's not a good term to use)

I see no distinction between ones “gender” and biological sex - so I would claim that our “gender” is determined by our physicality - not our perception.

So - if a male were to lose his penis - and if that fact made him feel like less-than-a-man - he would still be male - though he would have my pity.

Poor guy.

I had to see it from a medical perspective (like understanding hormones, chromosomes, etc) not a cultural one (one's cultural/identity as male or female). It made it easier to see this isn't a "fad" or anything like that. I also go to this other lgbtq site and many children come there confused about their gender-all over the world-without any influence by the "colors of the rainbow." It tears me up a lot because if these things didn't exist, someone in Iran, America, I don't know, Kathmandu (ha been spelling it Catmandu all these years) would not share the same experiences coming from different cultures, languages, religions, and backgrounds. When I hear their experiences and things like "how to tell my parents...." or "my mother is christian and...." or "My father took my electronics and yelled at me and should I go to the police...." kind of puts things into a different perspective than the stereotypes we are accustomed to daily.

This is a statement that assumes that I just don’t get it or that I have no interest in getting it.

I believe that I do get it and because I get it I am able (and willing) to cut through what I consider to be the BS and get to the heart of the issue.

And I refuse to use terms or engage in speech that I do not agree with.

To be deadly honest, I don't believe you do. I know I don't.

But gaining insight doesn't mean you have to change your opinion, though. I just find it easier when both parties are on the same level of understanding to form any judgement either way. For example (switching shoes), not everyone knows "assigned at birth" and other terms like that but a lot of people going through it assume this would just slide off the other person's level of understanding. It doesn't.

For me it's more about education, really. If the other person understands and still disagrees, I try to bite my tongue.

I’m sure I’ve heard it all before and I know that I would find it wanting.

I have seen no reason to distinguish “gender identity” from biological sex.

Just for sake of conversation not to convince you of anything. I don't have a reason to either and don't even think of it 99.9 percent of the time throughout my day. But how can you talk about a topic but don't make attempts to understand the nature of what we're talking about (from the other person's perspective)??

I cannot in good conscience agree with that.

We are defined by the totality of our being - not simply our perception of self.

And our identity cannot be separate from our biological sex.

That's where the medical condition gender dysphoria comes in rather than opinion and beliefs. I kid you not, there are still people who think having a seizure means being possessed by the holy spirit. People still want to put spoons and books in my mouths when I did have one. While these opinions aren't dangerous in and of themselves, but if one is a parent, educator, doctor, or even spiritual advisor, it can be damaging to the other person-that's the issue I see.

You not only assume that my opinion is not “sound” - simply because I disagree with the narrative - but you also assume that I have no empathy or interest in learning the perspective of others.

Not to mention that assumption that I am the type of person who would make a snap judgment - without due consideration - simply based on the fact that I disagree.

Based on the two threads, I would honestly say they aren't sound or logical because if you don't see how gender and biological sex are separate, how can you form an opinion about whether it is right or wrong. You honestly say you don't have interest in knowing the difference so, while not harmful in and of itself, why would it be off to say your disagreement isn't founded on something you understand fully first?

That would be like me claiming that people have an unsound opinion, no interest and made a snap judgment simply because they disagree with me about God.

They couldn’t have just come to a different conclusion than me?

I have discussed this issue for many years and have long since gotten to the point where I believe I can judge it for myself.

I see no reason to agree with the narrative.

You don't have to agree with the narrative, but the medical conditional, diagnosis, and treatment are independent of the narrative.

The assumption that the only reason I would disagree with it is because I lack understanding, empathy or am ignorant is offensive.

How come it is not possible - to you - for me to have simply come to a different conclusion?

That is a disconcerting and potentially disturbing stance to take.

It’s starting to feel a lot like 1984 up in here.

I don't know how to make it sound different, though. It's not a bad thing to not know something (i.e. can't gain special insight to understanding.... and not being able to differentiate gender and biological sex) to form an opinion. I would rather hear, "I don't know enough about it to say whether I agree or disagree."

If you feel you can't gain special insight into someone else's view, have no interest, and can't determine the difference between gender identity and biological sex, how can you form an opinion for or against it that makes sense?

Thank you - but I am content with my position on this issue.

What was your original comment for the OP?

It would make sense if you're set in your opinion, you'd be challenge on it, no?

You confuse my unwillingness to accept the nuances of the “gender identity” narrative - as well as my refusal to use terms and speech I don’t agree with - as confusion.

I understand it - I just do not agree with it. I cannot agree with it.

Not only have I seen no reason to agree - but to agree would require me to deny my own religious beliefs - which I believe the Holy Spirit has confirmed to me to be true.

It is entirely possible that my belief that our spirits our engendered is just as strong - if not more so - than transgender individuals believing they are members of the opposing “gender”.

And my sharing my opinion about “gender” is not an attempt to convince anyone - unlike members of the forum on this thread.

They are asking me to deny my religious beliefs - while I am not asking them to deny any aspect of themselves - just let me share my opinion when asked without molestation.

Also - it is my opinion that if a concept is confusing even after studying it - it is usually not true.

I'm just confused-how can a medical diagnosis from doctors who are not transgender and even have their own religious beliefs study and confirm something is a fact medical but then call it a narrative at the same time?

No one said that anyone was “defined” by their genitalia.

If - however - you want to make a physical comparison between your “maleness” and mine - don’t get upset if the subject of my...um…”manhood” is brought up as well as your lack of a...um…”manhood”.

It's what you're were saying above-gender and biological sex are inseparable. Just different words to convey the same thing.

I'm not sure where you getting at with the rest of this?

But what is manhood in relation to one's sex?
How do you define it?

I’d hope that it would be a combination of both as well as other relevant factors.

I am a man and I would not want to marry a woman who did not find me attractive or who was only attracted to other women.

That would not be the start of a relationship I would want to be in or a healthy relationship in general IMHO.

I agree completely.

I reject the idea that you need to know someone at all in order to discuss your beliefs or biological facts.

It is my opinion that I am male because God formed me as such and that my spirit is male.

That’s not even to mention genetics.

I have yet to see any evidence or reasonable argument that disputes my opinion and biological facts.

It's just basic conversation etiquette on topics of opinion. If you two aren't on the same grounding, and don't want to be, then you two are talking pass each other. This is both sides not just one.

But.... what is a male spirit?

I understand that not everyone copes with objective reality as easily as I do.

I hope they find solace in the fact that I struggle with other things that they themselves would find easy.

Thank you for your time and patience.

I look forward to hearing your response.

I don’t think we should talk about this any more because it has become a subject of moderation and I wouldn’t want to bother the administrators again.

LOL .... LOL

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Barring religious reasons - undue burden on the tax payer and the individual who is transitioning, the massive suicide rate remaining unaffected by transitioning, unethical practice of telling patients to give into their delusions, taking advantage of the delusional (huge cash grab), unfulfilled expectations for the patient - and general love of my fellow human beings.

It sounds like it had nothing to do with the illness itself just it's getting mixed up with the politics behind it. I'm sure medical doctors arent buying into the narrative, are they?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Convenient for you to know insert biology into it. But facta are after Frank offered to compare beards you did offer penis as a measurement of being male. It obviously doesn't quite nicely work like that. Neither does saying biological male, because that can be problematic as well.

And I wasn't even serious about the beard thing. That's part of what is so stupid about the whole thing.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You did not get the answer?

Probably mixed in a couple ideas I didn't catch it.

Are we referring to the same thing?
Scientific law - Wikipedia
Several general properties of scientific laws, particularly when referring to laws in physics, have been identified. They are:

That went over my head. When you say universal laws, are you referring to metaphysics (or spiritual laws?) .... my original question when you first said this was how did you associate it to a giver?

Have you been reading the posts, in this thread... and that question has not been answered? I don't mean was the question not answered to your satisfaction, but was the question answered?

Not all of them. I think I got this question somewhere in your comments to others but not to me directly.

There were others, and looking at whether they weaken the argument or not, is not an issue... unless you think that the argument that eating glass is not weakened by the fact that it is not healthy and can lead to death. Do you?

I'm not sure how the latter it connects.

From what I read, they were saying that surgery treatment for dysphoria is a well worth treatment and option for many transgender. You mentioned there were failure rates. Assuming that's your counter argument, how does the failure rates (or lead to death?) of treatment weaken the argument that for many transgender, surgery is the best option for their mental health condition?

Do you think I don't understand?

Honestly, yes. I'm kinda getting mixed up with you and jesusknowsyou. He (or she) mentioned he didn't see gender and sex separate. Do you believe the same?

What is gender to you? (You probably answered this with others but I didn't read all the convo)

You never responded to the information I asked about, so I don't see how you can be talking about public opinion, since the references were not public opinion. I never posted anything about public opinion. Have you really been following the thread?

I think this was to Jesusknowsyou. He kept talking about not believing the (transgender) narrative. I don't know if you agree with him for me to make that statement.

You said it.
So you think that everything that is said is taken to heart based on cultural biases? If no, why mention this?

When you said this.... It reminds me of what I heard some top Satanists say, about their agenda - put simply - "Eradicate Judeo-Christianity and it's values from society... permanently."....

It made me wonder if you believed what they said. Re-reading it now, maybe you can clarify what you meant?

I take my information from sources that are reputable. Are you saying I should talk to a psychopath. in order to understand the mental state, rather than people who actually study these behaviors, and have experience in the field?

Wait? Wait? What????

How on earth did you compare this topic of getting insight from transgender with getting insight from a psychopath???

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Not when I'm convinced it is all based on lies.

Again - what if it is all based on lies?

The rate of suicide among transgender individuals in the US is higher than that of Jewish inmates in Nazi-occupied Germany.

The depression and anxiety could be other symptoms of mental illness.

It meets the criteria in every respect - except that transgenderism can be used for political and financia

Then the suicide rate would change for the better - but it isn't.

And the rate of those wanting to detransition would decrease - but it is increasing.

Two questions. What is the nature of the lie that people all around the world with no access to the narrative still experience gender dysphoria just as much as the people who are familiar with it?

What is the nature of the lie that the illness and symptoms are dependent on the people who have it and not being an illness in and of itself independent on who has it and who does not?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

unless you think that the argument that eating glass is not weakened by the fact that it is not healthy and can lead to death. Do you?

Actually, glass eating is a stunt that requires training. With this training one can eat glass with minimal risks.
Its why trans care standards require healthcare providers who are trained in gender issues, and why it is best to let them guide transitioning through diagnosis through surgeries. Because, like eating glass, it can be done it just should never be taken lightly.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Basically - if a boy tells himself that he is a girl enough times - what effect would that have on his brain?

Its a tragedy and it doesn't work and has been horribly amd tragically demonstared to not work.
David Reimer - Wikipedia
He was born a boy, suffered a botched circumcision, surgically altered to and raised a girl, and yet still identified as male. He eventually took his own life due to problems he was having.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The depression and anxiety could be other symptoms of mental illness.

As has been said multiple times, after we transition the anxiety and depression largely and mostly is due to people treating us like crap.

It meets the criteria in every respect - except that transgenderism can be used for political and financia

Not true. Delusions have no basis in reality. With GD, there are neurological reasons it happens. It's not a delusion and we know that even before hormones their brains look more like their identified sex. And, unlike delusions, daily activity functioning improves with transition, but decreses whem delusions and hallucinations are followed.

Then the suicide rate would change for the better - but it isn't.

It goes down after transitioning, and the literature and research is flooded with remarks, comments, and observations that the suicide rate is driven largely by poor treatment from others.

And the rate of those wanting to detransition would decrease - but it is increasing.

Untrue, and it's a very small number who do.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Can I ask if you are against plastic surgery when someone has been in a car crash?

This thing with that argument is plastic surgery is intended for victims of disfigurement.

The physician oath from my understanding is not to cut into already healthy living tissue but things With this generation clearly have changed with that.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Do Christian physicians on RF have the same view that transgenderism isn't a condition but something chosen or delusion of some sort?

I'm wondering if just people without knowledge and experience of medics in relation to this topic.

 

[night912]

Sin requires accountability - which requires knowledge and understanding.

It is similar to a concept of law known as "mens rea".

We can offend God by our actions without committing sin.

Then nothing is can be a sin.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

This thing with that argument is plastic surgery is intended for victims of disfigurement.

The physician oath from my understanding is not to cut into already healthy living tissue but things With this generation clearly have changed with that.

Ive had surgeons cut into healthy, living tissue multiple times and have the scars to prove it. As do those who've had open heart surgery. I really don't know where thay idea comes from, but it's not actually a part of the oath because it's basically impossible for many sorts--such as surgeons--to do their job without violating it.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

This thing with that argument is plastic surgery is intended for victims of disfigurement.

The physician oath from my understanding is not to cut into already healthy living tissue but things With this generation clearly have changed with that.

The oath is simply to do no harm. A lot of times plastic surgery helps treat depression, anxiety or other disorders when those things center on physical appearance. My surgeon may have pitched breast cancer risk and back problems as the reason for me getting a breast reduction surgery to my insurance company (and they weren't wrong), but the reason I did it is because I didn't like how I looked at a triple-J. I'd be lying if I said that the appearance part wasn't more important than the health aspect.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The oath is simply to do no harm. A lot of times plastic surgery helps treat depression, anxiety or other disorders when those things center on physical appearance. My surgeon may have pitched breast cancer risk and back problems as the reason for me getting a breast reduction surgery to my insurance company (and they weren't wrong), but the reason I did it is because I didn't like how I looked at a triple-J. I'd be lying if I said that the appearance part wasn't more important than the health aspect.

I knew a woman who had small breasts until she got pregnant, and suddenly she had enormous breasts that didn't recede after pregnancy. She too had breast reduction to look more normal and better, and because she was having back problems. She became much happier after that (she was also able to find clothes that fit right and looked good on her again).

 

[Milton Platt]

When you say, one does not choose, do you mean that a male gets a penis, even though he did not ask for one, and a female gets a vagina, even though she never asked for one, and under the laws of nature, they use it in the correct way?
I can agree with that.
However, if you are saying that one does not choose whether they prefer to use their male genital organs in anything but a vagina, then I have to disagree with you. The last I checked, hundreds of people are choosing their sexual preferences.
Whatever name they choose to call it, orientation or otherwise, it is the same thing.

I did not say anything about sexual organs or their usage, only sexual orientation.

 

[nPeace]

We are as of now, to my best knowledgen unsure of those exact details. We just know Newtonian physics do an excellent job at predicting the world and cosmos around us.

Nothing wrong with you saying, you don't know.
To our best knowledge laws are not fixed and set, unless done so by a law giver. So based on what we know, the best explanation, is that these laws were set by someone - just as Hebrews 3:4 says.

 

[Piculet]

I knew a woman who had small breasts until she got pregnant, and suddenly she had enormous breasts that didn't recede after pregnancy. She too had breast reduction to look more normal and better, and because she was having back problems. She became much happier after that (she was also able to find clothes that fit right and looked good on her again).

I'm sceptical. She had small but fully developed breasts, she didn't put on extra weight and got back to her previous weight. Her breasts went from small to enormous.

Healthfully

No, I don't believe a word of your story.