Was the Apostle Paul a Good Man?

[Nakosis]

Nothing Paul says is credible.

1. Paul says that Jesus will return within his (Paul’s) lifetime. MAJOR Discrediting Event
2. Paul teaches the opposite of what Matthew, Mark and Luke report Jesus taught. Major Discrediting Event
3. Paul originates the “Jesus died for our sins” story based on a false premise
4. Paul tells three different stories about seeing Jesus.
5. Paul makes up doctrine to suit the occasion and justifies it with reference to Old Testament prophecy.
6. Paul started the “blame the Jews” movement.

Paul Is Wrong About So Much, Why Do You Believe ANYTHING He Says?

Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

 

[exchemist]

Nothing Paul says is credible.

1. Paul says that Jesus will return within his (Paul’s) lifetime. MAJOR Discrediting Event
2. Paul teaches the opposite of what Matthew, Mark and Luke report Jesus taught. Major Discrediting Event
3. Paul originates the “Jesus died for our sins” story based on a false premise
4. Paul tells three different stories about seeing Jesus.
5. Paul makes up doctrine to suit the occasion and justifies it with reference to Old Testament prophecy.
6. Paul started the “blame the Jews” movement.

Paul Is Wrong About So Much, Why Do You Believe ANYTHING He Says?

Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

​

Anything that has the lack of self-awareness to call itself the "Church of Truth" deserves to be given a wide berth.

But I have to admit I do not find St Paul either clear or congenial, a lot of the time.

 

[epronovost]

Christ and Paul never existed.Both are part of a simply solar myth misunderstood by western civilisation.

Didn't you fail to demonstrate that in a previous thread, then made a couple assumption that I then showed were false and that you subsequently chose to ignore or failed to refute?

PS: solar myths are common in western civilisations too.

 

[King Phenomenon]

 

[Kenny]

Nothing Paul says is credible.

1. Paul says that Jesus will return within his (Paul’s) lifetime. MAJOR Discrediting Event
2. Paul teaches the opposite of what Matthew, Mark and Luke report Jesus taught. Major Discrediting Event
3. Paul originates the “Jesus died for our sins” story based on a false premise
4. Paul tells three different stories about seeing Jesus.
5. Paul makes up doctrine to suit the occasion and justifies it with reference to Old Testament prophecy.
6. Paul started the “blame the Jews” movement.

Paul Is Wrong About So Much, Why Do You Believe ANYTHING He Says?

Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

ui

WOW! Quite a lot of statements. I wonder if the Apostles agreed with your long list:

Act 15:
22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.
24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
30 So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:
31 Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation.
32 And Judas and Silas, being prophets also themselves, exhorted the brethren with many words, and confirmed them.
33 And after they had tarried there a space, they were let go in peace from the brethren unto the apostles.

hmmm... not there...

Galatians 2:9
And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

not there either...

2 Peter 3:15
And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

Not there either...

It seem like you are contrary to what the Apostles were saying.

 

[Nakosis]

WOW! Quite a lot of statements. I wonder if the Apostles agreed with your long list:

Act 15:
22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.
24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
30 So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:
31 Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation.
32 And Judas and Silas, being prophets also themselves, exhorted the brethren with many words, and confirmed them.
33 And after they had tarried there a space, they were let go in peace from the brethren unto the apostles.

hmmm... not there...

Galatians 2:9
And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

not there either...

2 Peter 3:15
And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

Not there either...

It seem like you are contrary to what the Apostles were saying.

The idea here is Luke who was a disciple of Paul wrote Acts. Being a disciple of Paul it's doubtful Acts would say anything derogatory about Paul. Paul wrote Galatians. Which leaves you with 2 Peter who's authorship is questionable. Three documents supporting Paul of questionable objectivity.

 

[OtherSheep]

Nothing Paul says is credible.

1. Paul says that Jesus will return within his (Paul’s) lifetime. MAJOR Discrediting Event
2. Paul teaches the opposite of what Matthew, Mark and Luke report Jesus taught. Major Discrediting Event
3. Paul originates the “Jesus died for our sins” story based on a false premise
4. Paul tells three different stories about seeing Jesus.
5. Paul makes up doctrine to suit the occasion and justifies it with reference to Old Testament prophecy.
6. Paul started the “blame the Jews” movement.

Paul Is Wrong About So Much, Why Do You Believe ANYTHING He Says?

Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

Mark is a fellow-traveler of Paul's, so why do you quote him? So is Luke, btw.
Hearsay is no evidence, much less is it a witness.

Jesus says that if you don't forgive others you won't be forgiven. Paul says believe in your heart and confess with your mouth, and abracadabra... saved, chosen...
Jesus says those who follow Him are called, chosen, and faithful... meaning they keep the words Jesus taught and did what Jesus told them to do. Jesus says the Holy Spirit will remind us of what Jesus taught... not what Paul taught in and of himself. Keep in mind that Matthew's last chapter says the Apostles of Jesus teach the very things Jesus had taught to them... not some new thing.

That being said, even a broken clock is right twice a day. Some things Paul claims do essentially parody what we are told of God's nature. But Paul teaches against what former prophets taught, which is the mark of a false prophet, according to the OT; which Paul has relegated, by and large, to the trash-bin of bad ideas. But if God changes not, then Paul doesn't justify any part of what he teaches with what the OT claims of itself.

And no, Paul didn't start the 'blame the Jews movement' ... ... Jesus did.

Matthew 21
21:37 But last of all He sent unto them His Son, saying, They will reverence My Son.
21:38 But when the husbandmen saw the Son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill Him, and let us seize on His inheritance.
21:39 And they caught Him, and cast [Him] out of the vineyard, and slew [Him].
21:40 When the Lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will He do unto those husbandmen?
21:41 They say unto Him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out [His] vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render Him the fruits in their seasons. 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
21:45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard His parables, they perceived that He spake of them."

This is Jesus telling us, point blank, that He was going to be killed outside the vineyard/Jerusalem by the keepers of Jerusalem, and that they would steal His inheritance. This is Jesus telling us that what will happen to these people matches what Daniel says about the statue with feet ground to powder. The feet are people who will follow the Beast of both Daniel and Revelation, who is Kronos of Hesiod's Theogony.

IMHO, Jesus righted what was wrong with the OT's record of the sayings of Moses,
and also righted what was wrong with the Hesiod record of the sayings of Muses.

[both are subject to the translationists who don't always translate what seem to be personal names. Kronos is time. Zeus was a son of time, and subject to death. He became the father of gods and man by defeating time/Kronos. Kronos is also Saturn, connected to Seth-Typhon, connected to Enki and his mother Tiamat who is chaos. Tiamat is the 7-headed red dragon of Babylon... all of which I've just posted in another thread.
Zeus is Jesus, IMHO. This fact becomes stronger to me as time rolls on. God gives to each man what that man can understand. Genetics plays a part in shaping the desires and mental capacity of each one of us. The essential nature of God never changes, but each man's perception of Him almost certainly has to, from age to age.
... but what Paul has said goes against the very nature of God. Because if man isn't inherently accountable for his actions, then man is forever an outlaw and God is to blame. This is the sort of nonsense that makes God blamed for allowing _____ by men who revel in their freedom of choice, as though one has nothing to do with the other.]

 

[OtherSheep]

WOW! Quite a lot of statements. I wonder if the Apostles agreed with your long list:

Act 15:
22 [...] 33 [...]

hmmm... not there...

Galatians 2:9
[...]

not there either...

2 Peter 3:15
And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

Not there either...

It seem like you are contrary to what the Apostles were saying.

Since Luke is a fellow-traveler/biographer of Paul: no surprise.

The Galatian quote is a circular argument... is it even remotely possible that Paul would have intentionally outed himself in writing? I say intentionally, because Galatians does more to out the mind of Paul than anything else we currently possess.

Peter never calls Paul an Apostle... does anybody do that besides Paul... who keeps doing it over and over as though refuting a current saying... just as he says over and over that he isn't a liar. In fact, when Paul is about to be put to the question, he openly lies about the reason for the trial, thereby stirring up a hornet's nest and escaping in the melee.

 

[Nakosis]

The Ebionites a group of early followers of Jesus rejected Paul as an apostate.
Ebionites - Wikipedia

Acts 21:18-24 The Apostles ask Paul to follow Jewish law.
Acts 21:26-30 Paul was seized and tossed out by the early followers of Jesus for teaching against the law of Moses.

 

[OtherSheep]

Christ and Paul never existed.Both are part of a simply solar myth misunderstood by western civilisation.

What does Paul have to do with the growing body of solar-mythologists, apart from the resemblance of Paul's name to Apollyon?

 

[OtherSheep]

The Ebionites a group of early followers of Jesus rejected Paul as an apostate.
Ebionites - Wikipedia

Acts 21:18-24 The Apostles ask Paul to follow Jewish law.
Acts 21:26-30 Paul was seized and tossed out by the early followers of Jesus for teaching against the law of Moses.

Yep. Wasn't James the leader of the poor Ebionites? James was apparently written to refute what Paul was teaching, as were the letters to the churches in Revelation. Who else was directly teaching that eating in the temple of the demon was fine as long as nobody claiming Christ saw you? Who else was teaching 'deep things of Satan' but calling them 'of God'? People who have this 'knowledge' are eating foods sacrificed to demons.

And in some places, Paul is telling them not to have anything to do with demons. No wonder people think there were a whole lot of Paul's mashed together. It's either that or Paul matches more than one of his own descriptions: unstable in all his ways, and meeting Satan disguised as an angel of light in the wilderness on the way to Damascus.

Jesus is seen by John not as a light but as the Son of man. Which witness would you like to believe? Luke has the Holy Spirit as a forked-tongue of flame. But the two witnesses of John and Matthew say Jesus breathed on them. Jesus isn't a fire-breathing dragon. John says Jesus would baptize with fire and a winnowing fork... meaning that the purging of fire was only to remove the dross. Would anyone who was receiving the Holy Spirit need purging? My answer is No. Jesus says His chosen Apostles are clean by the word He spoke to them. Paul says he wants to be good but can't... that he needs his sins removed with a magic eraser.
[Is this what you meant by Paul's false premise? Because, from what I understand, sins that you did before you decide to follow Jesus are forgiven; but afterwards, you are told to humble yourself to the ones you've injured... Jesus gives grace for grace, so that we may forgive as we are forgiven. Those who hold on to their pride and never apologize... are therefore, unforgiven.]

 

[Kenny]

The idea here is Luke who was a disciple of Paul wrote Acts. Being a disciple of Paul it's doubtful Acts would say anything derogatory about Paul. Paul wrote Galatians. Which leaves you with 2 Peter who's authorship is questionable. Three documents supporting Paul of questionable objectivity.

So, really, what you have is opinions about why but you still don't have anything that really supports your position.

Interestingly enough, there are no supportive letters of anyone denying Paul authenticity in the centuries right after his life and no letters from those of that very time when he was preaching. But your view is 2000 years later

Is it that you want it to be wrong?

 

[Kenny]

Since Luke is a fellow-traveler/biographer of Paul: no surprise.

The Galatian quote is a circular argument... is it even remotely possible that Paul would have intentionally outed himself in writing? I say intentionally, because Galatians does more to out the mind of Paul than anything else we currently possess.

Peter never calls Paul an Apostle... does anybody do that besides Paul... who keeps doing it over and over as though refuting a current saying... just as he says over and over that he isn't a liar. In fact, when Paul is about to be put to the question, he openly lies about the reason for the trial, thereby stirring up a hornet's nest and escaping in the melee.

Actually yes...

Acts 13:2-4 King James Version (KJV)
2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.
3 And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.
4 So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus.

After the laying on of hands, the word apostle was given to him and Barnabas.

Acts 14:14
Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,

And other scriptures in Acts.

What is it odd that paul would have intentionally outed himself in writing?

 

[Nakosis]

So, really, what you have is opinions about why but you still don't have anything that really supports your position.

Interestingly enough, there are no supportive letters of anyone denying Paul authenticity in the centuries right after his life and no letters from those of that very time when he was preaching. But your view is 2000 years later

Is it that you want it to be wrong?

No just the Apostles themselves criticizing Paul and his deviations from the teachings of Jesus.

 

[Nakosis]

Mark is a fellow-traveler of Paul's, so why do you quote him? So is Luke, btw.
Hearsay is no evidence, much less is it a witness.

Jesus says that if you don't forgive others you won't be forgiven. Paul says believe in your heart and confess with your mouth, and abracadabra... saved, chosen...
Jesus says those who follow Him are called, chosen, and faithful... meaning they keep the words Jesus taught and did what Jesus told them to do. Jesus says the Holy Spirit will remind us of what Jesus taught... not what Paul taught in and of himself. Keep in mind that Matthew's last chapter says the Apostles of Jesus teach the very things Jesus had taught to them... not some new thing.

That being said, even a broken clock is right twice a day. Some things Paul claims do essentially parody what we are told of God's nature. But Paul teaches against what former prophets taught, which is the mark of a false prophet, according to the OT; which Paul has relegated, by and large, to the trash-bin of bad ideas. But if God changes not, then Paul doesn't justify any part of what he teaches with what the OT claims of itself.

And no, Paul didn't start the 'blame the Jews movement' ... ... Jesus did.

Matthew 21
21:37 But last of all He sent unto them His Son, saying, They will reverence My Son.
21:38 But when the husbandmen saw the Son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill Him, and let us seize on His inheritance.
21:39 And they caught Him, and cast [Him] out of the vineyard, and slew [Him].
21:40 When the Lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will He do unto those husbandmen?
21:41 They say unto Him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out [His] vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render Him the fruits in their seasons. 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
21:45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard His parables, they perceived that He spake of them."

This is Jesus telling us, point blank, that He was going to be killed outside the vineyard/Jerusalem by the keepers of Jerusalem, and that they would steal His inheritance. This is Jesus telling us that what will happen to these people matches what Daniel says about the statue with feet ground to powder. The feet are people who will follow the Beast of both Daniel and Revelation, who is Kronos of Hesiod's Theogony.

IMHO, Jesus righted what was wrong with the OT's record of the sayings of Moses,
and also righted what was wrong with the Hesiod record of the sayings of Muses.

[both are subject to the translationists who don't always translate what seem to be personal names. Kronos is time. Zeus was a son of time, and subject to death. He became the father of gods and man by defeating time/Kronos. Kronos is also Saturn, connected to Seth-Typhon, connected to Enki and his mother Tiamat who is chaos. Tiamat is the 7-headed red dragon of Babylon... all of which I've just posted in another thread.
Zeus is Jesus, IMHO. This fact becomes stronger to me as time rolls on. God gives to each man what that man can understand. Genetics plays a part in shaping the desires and mental capacity of each one of us. The essential nature of God never changes, but each man's perception of Him almost certainly has to, from age to age.
... but what Paul has said goes against the very nature of God. Because if man isn't inherently accountable for his actions, then man is forever an outlaw and God is to blame. This is the sort of nonsense that makes God blamed for allowing _____ by men who revel in their freedom of choice, as though one has nothing to do with the other.]

Obviously you've looked into this more than I have.

Two things I've noticed is when asking most Christians about their theology they almost always end up referring to Paul. Second, if Paul and Jesus had the same teaching, then why aren't they able to use what Jesus said directly?

Paul never met Jesus, never learned from Jesus.

There was some trouble between Mark and Paul at one point in Acts. Paul didn't want Mark to come with him. Although all of the gospels were written many years after the death of Jesus it's all we have of him from the Bible.

 

[Kenny]

No just the Apostles themselves criticizing Paul and his deviations from the teachings of Jesus.

Which one? Do you have a quote?

 

[Nakosis]

Which one? Do you have a quote?

Galatians 2:11-13 Has Paul and Peter at odds with each other.

1 Cor 9:1-2 Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? If I am not an apostle to others, yet doubtless I am to you. For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.

Here Paul is not seen as an Apostle by some.

Acts 21:18-24 The Apostles tell Paul to stop turning others away from the law of Moses.

 

[Kenny]

Galatians 2:11-13 Has Paul and Peter at odds with each other.

1 Cor 9:1-2 Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? If I am not an apostle to others, yet doubtless I am to you. For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.

Here Paul is not seen as an Apostle by some.

Acts 21:18-24 The Apostles tell Paul to stop turning others away from the law of Moses.

Galatians had nothing to do with "apostleship" but hypocrisy. That doesn't support your position as it was Peter who first brought the gospel to the Gentiles

If you read Acts 21 - you would see they are trying to help him because of the false accusations - to which he followed their advise..

 

[1213]

Jesus said:

Jesus asked him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good, except one-God.
Luke 18:19

After that it is really difficult to me to call any human good. But, I think Paul has good and right teachings, but as Peter says:

as also in all of his letters, speaking in them of these things. In those are some things hard to be understood, which the ignorant and unsettled twist, as they also do to the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
2 Pet. 3:16

Paul’s teachings are twisted for wrong purposes and to have wrong meanings, which can lead many to astray.

…Paul says that Jesus will return within his (Paul’s) lifetime. MAJOR Discrediting Event…

Please show where it is said?

…Paul teaches the opposite of what Matthew, Mark and Luke report Jesus taught. Major Discrediting Event…

Please explain what do you mean?

…Paul originates the “Jesus died for our sins” story based on a false premise…

I think Paul is misunderstood in this. I think he has correct idea, if it is understood in right way. Jesus came on earth to declare forgiveness. So, it can be said he came because of our sins. And because of what he did, he was murdered. So, in a way, he was killed because of our sins.

…Paul tells three different stories about seeing Jesus…

Please explain what do you mean?

…Paul started the “blame the Jews” movement…

I disagree with that. Gospels show how Jews (their leaders) wanted that Jesus is killed and they arranged it so that Jesus would be killed. So, even though it was Romans who did the job, there were Jews that can be seen guilty for that. Are they not guilty, if things went as the Gospels tell? Obviously, this doesn’t mean that every Jew, even in our time, are guilty for that.

 

[Nakosis]

Galatians had nothing to do with "apostleship" but hypocrisy. That doesn't support your position as it was Peter who first brought the gospel to the Gentiles

If you read Acts 21 - you would see they are trying to help him because of the false accusations - to which he followed their advise..

And still gets kicked out and beaten by the Israelites afterward. Acts 22 has Paul trying to defend his Jewishness. Paul had to be rescued by the Romans from the followers of Jesus.

Jesus himself said he came to save the. Israelites. Something which Paul ignores.