God And Homosexuality

[Spartan]

Jesus did not write Corinthians, and the MAN who did was expressing the same tired prejudice and ignorance that we see expressed every day even in our own time. Also, that MAN that wrote to the Corinthians never met Jesus nor ever heard him speak. So he had no idea what Jesus would have actually said.

Paul had spiritual revelations from Jesus (2 Corinthians 12:7, etc.), so what he wrote was legit. In addition, all scripture is given by inspiration of God (2 Timothy 3:16).

Even the gospels were written between 75 and 200 years after the events they supposedly portray. Plenty of time for the stories to become mythologized.

That's incorrect. The Gospels were written from roughly 45 AD to 95 AD (John). In addition, the early church fathers were UNANIMOUS that the Gospels were written by the traditional Gospel authors. See links below.

Matthew Authorship
https://drjamesmalcolm.com/.../1-church-fathers-and.../

Mark Authorship
https://renewal-theology.com/.../2-church-fathers-and.../

Luke Authorship
https://renewal-theology.com/.../3-church-fathers-and.../

John Authorship
https://renewal-theology.com/.../4-church-fathers-and.../

 

[Spartan]

seriously there is no bible verse that claims jesus is absolutely god. in fact, he tells you the Father is greater

john 14:28

That's what the Jehovah's Witnesses claim also, and they have no credibility on the issue. Scriptures like that - that say the Father is greater than Jesus, are only seen when Jesus was incarnate.

Philippians chapter 2 confirms it:

"In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness."

As for the deity of Jesus...

"The claims of Christ are many and varied. He said that He existed before Abraham (John 8:58), and that He was equal with the Father (John 5:17, 18). Jesus claimed the ability to forgive sins (Mark 2:5–7), which the Bible teaches was something that God alone could do (Isaiah 43:25)."

"The New Testament equated Jesus as the creator of the universe (John 1:3), and that He is the one who holds everything together (Colossians 1:17). The apostle Paul says that God was manifest in the flesh (I Timothy 3:16, KJV), and John the evangelist says that “the Word was God” (John 1:1). The united testimony of Jesus and the writers of the New Testament is that He was more than mere man; He was God."

"In another place He said, when asked for a sign, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up… but he spake of the temple of his body” (John 2:19, 21, KJV). The ability to raise His own life back from the dead was the sign that separates Him not only from all other religious leaders, but also from anyone else who has ever lived."

Did Jesus Claim to Be God? Even if He Did, Why Should I Believe It? - Josh.org

Also, Jesus is Jehovah. Scripture evidences in the link below.

Jesus Must be Jehovah

 

[PureX]

Paul had spiritual revelations from Jesus (2 Corinthians 12:7, etc.), so what he wrote was legit. In addition, all scripture is given by inspiration of God (2 Timothy 3:16).



That's incorrect. The Gospels were written from roughly 45 AD to 95 AD (John). In addition, the early church fathers were UNANIMOUS that the Gospels were written by the traditional Gospel authors. See links below.

Matthew Authorship
https://drjamesmalcolm.com/.../1-church-fathers-and.../

Mark Authorship
https://renewal-theology.com/.../2-church-fathers-and.../

Luke Authorship
https://renewal-theology.com/.../3-church-fathers-and.../

John Authorship
https://renewal-theology.com/.../4-church-fathers-and.../

Sorry, but I tend not to believe people who believe in magic.

 

[Kenny]

.
For this reason God gave them up to dishonourable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. (Romans 1:26-27)
​

This is a good example of how one can take a scripture out of context and loose completely about what is being written and what is being said.

In every case, in is imperative to know what is written before, what is written after and, for that matter, what is the whole of the book about.

Before we even get to Romans 1:26, we have to go through Romans 1:16-17 and then read the rest of the book to find out what a writer is really saying. The whole of the book of Romans is about God's love, His saving power and His desire for the whole of humanity.

We start with Romans 1:16-17 The Passion Translation (TPT)

16 I refuse to be ashamed of sharing the wonderful message of God’s liberating power unleashed in us through Christ! For I am thrilled to preach that everyone who believes is saved—the Jew first, and then people everywhere! 17 This gospel unveils a continual revelation of God’s righteousness—a perfect righteousness given to us when we believe. And it moves us from receiving life through faith, to the power of living by faith. This is what the Scripture means when it says:

“We are right with God through life-giving faith!”

1. Paul’s thesis statement

a. Rom 1:16-17 – power of God that brings salvation
b. It comes to all who believe and have faith (including those of whom he speaks of after)
c. It is the righteousness of God that is revealed
d. This comes to pass through faith
​

Some of Paul's Key Points:

1. The Gospel – what is it

a. Rom 1:1-4 – God has made promises
b. Promises are in Jewish scripture
c. The message of God’s son (about God’s son as the fulfillment of God’s plan)
d. Jesus was appointed declared to be the Son of God by the power of resurrection.​

Then he goes on to declare those who were obviously separated from God - those who were unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers etc. but not to condemn them but rather to save them.

"16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek."

And, for those who thought they were "holier than thou":

Romans 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

So, it isn't about a certain group of people who are doing a certain thing, it was about sin and how we all do it placing us all in the same category and thus:

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
.
So the whole of the book is about God eliminating sin (no matter how much one has immersed themselves in it and no matter what they have done or who is worse that another) because we all are in the same boat

BUT

He has a gift for all.

So, it isn't about hating a certain action or a certain people but simply about His love for us and how, no matter who one is, He can make the difference revealing His love from faith to faith... as it is written:

Romans 8:34-39 The Voice (VOICE)
34 Who has the authority to condemn? Jesus the Anointed who died, but more importantly, conquered death when Hewas raised to sit at the right hand of God where He pleads on our behalf. 35 So who can separate us? What can come between us and the love of God’s Anointed? Can troubles, hardships, persecution, hunger, poverty, danger, or even death? The answer is, absolutely nothing. 36 As the psalm says,

On Your behalf, our lives are endangered constantly;
we are like sheep awaiting slaughter.

37 But no matter what comes, we will always taste victory through Him who loved us. 38 For I have every confidence that nothing—not death, life, heavenly messengers, dark spirits, the present, the future, spiritual powers, 39 height, depth, nor any created thing—can come between us and the love of God revealed in the Anointed, Jesus our Lord.





So, we don't condemn, we don't judge a certain group (whatever that group is) - but simply tell them that God has the power unto salvation.

Now, this may be thrown into the wind, but there might be people who read this that might say, "informative"... this is for those who are truly interested.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

The lengths that people will go in order to twist the bible so that they can indulge in sinful behavior is amazing.

The lengths people will go to avoid actually responding and act smug is amazing. I guess you don't have much to say because you don't know much about the subject. Typical.

 

[Spartan]

Sorry, but I tend not to believe people who believe in magic.

And I don't give an ounce of credit to people who haven't done their proper homework.

 

[Left Coast]

That's incorrect. The Gospels were written from roughly 45 AD to 95 AD (John).

No sorry, that's incorrect. Most scholars date Mark, the earliest Gospel, to around 65-75. All other Gospels, who based their work on Mark, were written after, with John being written latest, possibly well into the 2nd century.

In addition, the early church fathers were UNANIMOUS that the Gospels were written by the traditional Gospel authors.

The guys we call the Early Church Fathers lived decades if not centuries after the Gospels were written. They simply accepted the oral tradition of who supposedly wrote the Gospels at face value. They had no first-hand knowledge of the facts.

 

[Spartan]

No sorry, that's incorrect. Most scholars date Mark, the earliest Gospel, being written around 65-75. All other Gospels, who based their work on Mark, were written after, with John being written latest, possibly well into the 2nd century.

Nope. But if you want the EARLIEST MENTION OF THE RESURRECTION, which pre-dates Mark, read this: Earliest Mention of the Resurrection of Jesus Christ

The guys we call the Early Church Fathers lived decades if not centuries after the Gospels were written. They simply accepted the oral tradition of who supposedly wrote the Gospels at face value. They had no first-hand knowledge of the facts.

You overlook things, like Polycarp and Irenaeus being disciples of the Apostle John - eyewitness to Jesus.

 

[Fool]

That's what the Jehovah's Witnesses claim also, and they have no credibility on the issue. Scriptures like that - that say the Father is greater than Jesus, are only seen when Jesus was incarnate.

Philippians chapter 2 confirms it:

"In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness."

As for the deity of Jesus...

"The claims of Christ are many and varied. He said that He existed before Abraham (John 8:58), and that He was equal with the Father (John 5:17, 18). Jesus claimed the ability to forgive sins (Mark 2:5–7), which the Bible teaches was something that God alone could do (Isaiah 43:25)."

"The New Testament equated Jesus as the creator of the universe (John 1:3), and that He is the one who holds everything together (Colossians 1:17). The apostle Paul says that God was manifest in the flesh (I Timothy 3:16, KJV), and John the evangelist says that “the Word was God” (John 1:1). The united testimony of Jesus and the writers of the New Testament is that He was more than mere man; He was God."

"In another place He said, when asked for a sign, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up… but he spake of the temple of his body” (John 2:19, 21, KJV). The ability to raise His own life back from the dead was the sign that separates Him not only from all other religious leaders, but also from anyone else who has ever lived."

Did Jesus Claim to Be God? Even if He Did, Why Should I Believe It? - Josh.org

Also, Jesus is Jehovah. Scripture evidences in the link below.

Jesus Must be Jehovah

again wrong.

the lord dwells in everyone as the Holy Spirit; which is of God. nothing is separate from god anymore than something can be separate from the Absolute.


ecclesiastes 12:7


being children of the most high formed in the earth and returning to their unformed self which is the same before entering into the grave, the earth

 

[Left Coast]

Nope.

Yep.

But if you want the EARLIEST MENTION OF THE RESURRECTION, which pre-dates Mark, read this: Earliest Mention of the Resurrection of Jesus Christ

Paul received his information about Jesus via direct revelation from a heavenly Jesus. He says this explicitly himself.

You overlook things, like Polycarp and Irenaeus being disciples of the Apostle John - eyewitness to Jesus.

The only surviving document we have of Polycarp's is his letter to the Philippians. He makes no mention of any of the four Gospel authors.

Irenaeus wasn't born till well into the 2nd century. He had no direct knowledge of who wrote the Gospels, he just accepted the oral tradition at face value.

 

[Tazarah]

Jesus did not write Corinthians, and the MAN who did was expressing the same tired prejudice and ignorance that we see expressed every day even in our own time. Also, that MAN that wrote to the Corinthians never met Jesus nor ever heard him speak. So he had no idea what Jesus would have actually said. Even the gospels were written between 75 and 200 years after the events they supposedly portray. Plenty of time for the stories to become mythologized.

Ah, so the bible is wrong, and you're right. The God ordained prophets are all wrong and ignorant, and you're right.

2 TIMOTHY 3:16

"16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"

 

[Tazarah]

The lengths people will go to avoid actually responding and act smug is amazing. I guess you don't have much to say because you don't know much about the subject. Typical.

I know what the bible says, and I know that your ideas directly contradict what the bible teaches.

ROMANS 3:4

"4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged."

 

[Spartan]

The only surviving document we have of Polycarp's is his letter to the Philippians. He makes no mention of any of the four Gospel authors.

Polycarp was a disciple of the Apostle John.

In his Epistle to the Philippians 2.1-3 and 7.2, Polycarp quotes from Matthew.

wasn't born till well into the 2nd century. He had no direct knowledge of who wrote the Gospels, he just accepted the oral tradition at face value.

That's incorrect. Here's just one example why:

"Irenaeus - Against Heresies, Book III, Chapter I:

"Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect, while Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome, and laying the foundations of the Church. After their departure, Mark, the disciple and interpreter of Peter, did also hand down to us in writing what had been preached by Peter. Luke also, the companion of Paul, recorded in a book the Gospel preached by him. Afterwards, John, the disciple of the Lord, who also had leaned upon His breast, did himself publish a Gospel during his residence at Ephesus in Asia."

More in the following link: 3. Church Fathers and Luke’s Gospel

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I know what the bible says, and I know that your ideas directly contradict what the bible teaches.

ROMANS 3:4

"4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged."

Anyone can read a verse but you actually have to do research to find out the meaning and context. Bible translations are usually biased in some way and it would be foolish not to bother to look any deeper into them. Unless you're not actually interested in having knowledge of your own religion. That would be quite pathethic but not uncommon in these sad times.

Honestly, you sound like a person scared to look deeper into your religion using scholarship because it might make you doubt your faith, so you give these dumb hand waving responses that don't address a damn thing and come off smug. But it's not fooling me. You haven't answered anything I said.

 

[Tazarah]

Anyone can read a verse but you actually have to do research to find out the meaning and context. Bible translations are usually biased in some way and it would be foolish not to bother to look any deeper into them. Unless you're not actually interested in having knowledge of your own religion. That would be quite pathethic but not uncommon in these sad times.

Honestly, you sound like a person scared to look deeper into your religion using scholarship because it might make you doubt your faith, so you give these dumb hand waving responses that don't address a damn thing and come off smug. But it's not fooling me. You haven't answered anything I said.

Any mainstream biblical scholar or commentator will agree that the verses which you claim are not speaking about actual homosexual people are indeed speaking about actual homosexual people, and that says a lot because not all mainstream biblical scholars and commentators always agree on everything.

If you have to cherrypick from different "scholars" and play semantics in order to support your ideas and opinions then you obviously are not interested in the obvious and clear truth of the bible and it's teachings.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Any mainstream biblical scholar or commentator

You mean conservative ones who agree with your position, because there's many who don't.

then you obviously are not interested in the obvious and clear truth of the bible and it's teachings.

Obviously I don't view the Bible as truth, because I'm not a member of an Abrahamic religion if you bothered to look at my religion field. I was a devout Catholic at one time but the homophobia and transphobia is one of the reasons why I dropped it.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

here's an argument i heard back when I a christian that I didn't look into:
Back in Rome there was a lot of pedophila or something which is why Paul wrote against homosexuality because???. Personally I don't know if it's true or not

Pederasty, not pedophilia. They were adolescents, not prepubescent children.

 

[Tazarah]

You mean conservative ones who agree with your position, because there's many who don't.

Obviously I don't view the Bible as truth, because I'm not a member of an Abrahamic religion if you bothered to look at my religion field. I was a devout Catholic at one time but the homophobia and transphobia is one of the reasons why I dropped it.

I've shown you multiple verses that all condemn homosexuality and I've even gone into the original languages to show you that these verses in question are indeed talking about people who practice homosexuality.

It's one thing to not agree with the bible, but when you try to convince people that the scriptures don't really say what they clearly say -- that's when you're going to run into problems.

God is not the author of confusion.

ISAIAH 5:20

"20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!"

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I've shown you multiple verses that all condemn homosexuality and I've even gone into the original languages to show you that these verses in question are indeed talking about people who practice homosexuality.

It's one thing to not agree with the bible, but when you try to convince people that the scriptures don't really say what they clearly say -- that's when you're going to run into problems.

God is not the author of confusion.

ISAIAH 5:20

"20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!"

You haven't shown anything, just posted verses.

Have a look at the debate surrounding it: http://www.religioustolerance.org/homarsen.htm

 

[Tazarah]

You haven't shown anything, just posted verses.

Have a look at the debate surrounding it: http://www.religioustolerance.org/homarsen.htm

***MOD EDIT*** Here are some more scriptures which clearly speak against homosexuality in great detail, as well as how they were punished for their homosexual behavior.

I believe that these were in the OP. There's no way that anyone could read this and say that it isn't talking about homosexuality. You would have to be in denial.

ROMANS 1:26-28

"26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;"