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Is Christian Mysticism Evil?

Howard Is

Lucky Mud
That council was comprised of a great cross section of the world’s apostles. so, yes, the church produced the Bible as we know it.

First Council of Nicaea

It was like the RF of the fourth century.

Look at the equivalent people today. The preeminent Bishop George Pell is currently imprisoned for child sexual abuse. Which we know is common among the clergy.

A collection of some 1800 Bishops, career clergy, decided on the nature of Jesus.

Are you suggesting their infallibility.? Or that Divine Intervention guided them ?
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
It seems like it's categorically close to common conceptions of magic , which mean taking divine power just a little more into your own hands. The 'golden bough' seems to describe that kind of public power as fading with the coming of 'religion,' by which I think he means abrahamic religions. In such religions , it seems that divine power always comes from a divine source, and never can freely emanate from a man or women without many caveats. Thus, you probably are not really free to have a mystical conception of what the bible says, or what people higher in spiritual hierarchies say . I am currently of the opinion that humans should probably take spiritual direction and power moreso into their own hands , as we appear to be the potential guiding hope of the world. For in early spirituality , it appears that we were at one time more spiritually elevated, and not likened to mere 'clay pots' fashioned by gods, ready to be smashed at a whim
 
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paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Of course Jesus was a mystic. For forty days and forty nights he entered the desert in solitude, and the devil hated it... And many of the earliest Christian's followed this tradition.

Mark 1:13

"And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him."
And was Moses also a mystic applying ones incorrect yardstick?

Regards
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
No — only as they actually are cogent to the argument. You haven’t provided anything cogent.


What you believe is immaterial. What has actually happened is pertinent. I deny the heresy of sola scriptura and will not be dragged into that rabbit hole. I assert that mysticism is part and parcel of the Faith and always has been.

Again, the RCC also doesn’t buy into the heresy of sola scriptura.

Ok my friend I will let you have the last say as I think you need it more than I do and I can see your not willing to discuss the OP here with someone that has a different views to yours. Time will tell if I am right or wrong. I guess you will want to hope that I am wrong for your own salvations sake. Though the scriptures tell me I am not if you believe the bible. I think it would be sad if you found out all too late you were never following God by practicing the occult IMO. :)
 
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3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
Of course Jesus was a mystic. For forty days and forty nights he entered the desert in solitude, and the devil hated it... And many of the earliest Christian's followed this tradition.

Mark 1:13

"And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him."

Nowhere in the scriptures does it say JESUS was a mystic. He was the son of God. Mysticism has it's origin in the occult as shown in post # 37 linked earlier o_O
 

Cooky

Veteran Member
Nowhere in the scriptures does it say JESUS was a mystic. He was the son of God. Mysticism has it's origin in the occult as shown in post # 37 linked earlier o_O

LOL, I've never heard of any catholic Saints or Doctors of the Church, who were mystics, chanting or doing anything like mantra. That's Buddhism. :D

You don't understand Christian Mysticism.
You at least owe it to yourself to understand what it is you're arguing against... Because you're conflating Buudhism and Catholicism.

I highly recommend reading the book: The Fulfillment of All Desire.

The Fulfillment of All Desire

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3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
NT Bible was also in Greek. Many words were adopted but not always with the same meaning. Mystikos in Christianity:

No there is no a single scripture in all the bible that teaches mysticism which has it's origin in pagan teachings and the occult. It is not biblical. You have to go outside of the bible to learn about mysticism. This alone should tell you not to go there.

You are mixing things up. Every major religion has its own mysticism. It's a natural part and development.

"Mysticism is the practice of religious ecstasies, together with whatever ideologies, ethics, rites, myths, legends, and magic may be related to them. It may also refer to the attainment of insight in ultimate or hidden truths, and to human transformation supported by various practices and experiences". (Wikipedia)

..........

"
Mysticism, the practice of religious ecstasies (religious experiences during alternate states of consciousness), together with whatever ideologies, ethics, rites, myths, legends, and magic may be related to them". (Encyclopedia Britanica)

.........

As posted earlier it has its origins from the occult and is not biblical. The difference is that the occult knows what it is doing and retains knowledge and consciensness and mysticism does not. Let look at the facts when comparing the occult with mysticism from the occult writings of MAX HEINDEL.

"Etymology can shed light on the two terms of our study. Both refer to that which is hidden. Occult comes from Latin occultus, concealed, and the verb occulere, to cover over. Mystic comes from the Greek myein, to shut the eyes. In the ancient mysteries the candidate’s eyes were actually opened (either after long sensory deprivation to effect heightened impact of the mystical scene, or, more esoterically, the spiritual vision was opened). In common usage, occultism reveals the hidden while mysticism only refers to the hidden.

Heindel retains this sense: Occultism is a rational presentation, a public showing of invisible or meta-physical truths. It identifies the causes for physical phenomena existing in the world of thought and, importantly, the path by which the invisible worlds can be consciously accessed and known. Mysticism describes the path of uniting with the first Cause of creation through faith, devotion, and love. Mysticism does not seek knowledge per se, it seeks God. It would surpass “mere” knowledge, however lofty. It wants total immersion in Divinity.

Mysticism, though having its origin in the revelation of higher knowledge in pre-Christian Mysteries (Greek, mysterion) of Asia Minor, Egypt, and Ancient Greece, during the Christian era it increasingly referred to a state of heightened subjectivity by which the religious seeker attained an ecstatic and ineffable union with the divine Presence. The content of this experience thus virtually defies transmission.

In occult experiences, on the other hand, the seer retains his ego-awareness when experiencing realities of the higher worlds and is able to give them a form that human reason can comprehend, without having to experience them first-hand. Therefore direct experience in the higher worlds is prepared for by studying the occult knowledge derived from those worlds. Mystic knowledge cannot be taught in this manner; in fact, the term is somewhat of a contradiction, if we understand knowledge precisely as that which can be taught or verbally communicated.

The word occult or its derivatives (occultist, occultism) occurs 145 times in the Cosmo, mystic appears nine times. Clearly Heindel was presenting occult, not mystic, truths, as the first and second editions of the book make clear, for its full title was Rosicrucian Cosmo-Conception or Christian Occult Science. In the third edition, Heindel changed the title to Rosicrucian Cosmo-Conception or Mystic Christianity. That the Cosmo is a presentation of occult, not mystic, Christian truths, is confirmed by both the book’s contents and by many statements made in Heindel’s other works, as this study will show.

The Cosmo’s purpose is to shed occult light on “the World-Mystery” (248) so that, as the concluding sentence to the first two editions explain, “faith can be swallowed up in knowledge dedicated to the service of Humanity.” The mystic “feels rather than knows” (478). But the “main efforts” of the Rosicrucians “are expended in reaching the intellectually minded, for their need is greater” than the mystics’, who travel the heart path
" (Mystic and Occult in Max Hendels Writings)

.............

What does this mean exactly? It simply means all mysticism is the practice and experience of the occult without a knowledge of what you are doing! This is not biblical and does not have it's origin in the scriptures or the teachings of JESUS and the bible!

Of course there is mysticism in the Bible. Moses, "fathers" and prophets didn't have a Bible. According to scripture they had first hand experience that was passed on and recorded. So it's the very source of the Bible. Jesus taught ascesis (fasting, prayer and good works), purity of heart to see God, spending time in stillness, "secrets of the kingdom of heaven", "rivers of living water" etc. Remember how did Paul meet Jesus...

None of what you have listed above is mysticism as defined earlier. The only mysticism spoken about according to the definitions provided are that of BAAL worship from paganism and the occult. Notice in 1 KINGS 18:17-38 that all the prophets of BAAL when challenged by Elijah to get their God to bring down fire from heaven to burn their sacrifice, they worked sought BAAL from morning to evening jumping up and down on the alter of sacrifice working themselves into a frenzy and cutting themselves practicing their mysticism and occult teachings. Then we see also the sorcerers and magicians that tried to copy the signs of God given to Moses through their magic and mysticism. All of these are a part of mysticism according to the definition we have provided above. Also of note every form of pagan religions, new age and occults all practice mysticism. This alone should tell you it is not of God let alone it not being biblical for God's people to practice. Then there are these scriptures...

Deuteronomy 18:10-12 There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord. And because of these abominations the Lord your God is driving them out before you.

Leviticus 20:6 “If a person turns to mediums and necromancers, whoring after them, I will set my face against that person and will cut him off from among his people.

Those who practice magic and pray and consult the dead (Mary and the Saints) the scriptures teach are an abomination with God.

More interesting reading...
Occult America: The Secret History of How Mysticism Shaped Our Nation

3rd Angel said: Martin Luther's insistence on the superiority of Scripture to mystical experience is seen in his rejection of the theology of Thomas Müntzer (1489-1525, executed for his role in the Peasants' War), who was heavily influenced by the Rhineland Mystic, Johannes Tauler (1300-1361).

Your response...

Tauler wrote his sermons in German for the Dominican nuns he counselled in Strasbourg. His thoughts are held to have influenced the young Martin Luther. The same can be said of The German Theology [Theologia Deutsch], an anonymous fourteenth-century tract written in vernacular German. Luther, who published this text in two annotated editions in 1516 and 1518, apparently remarked that, after the Bible and The Confessions of St. Augustine, this book had taught him the most about God, Christ, man, and the world. Luther cited both The German Theology and Tauler’s writings as evidence that his own teachings were not innovations but a continuation of orthodox ideas. (GHDI - Document - Chapter)

As posted in the quote you are quoting from Luther renounced mysticism and proclaimed his insistence on the superiority of Scripture to mystical experience which is seen in his rejection of the theology of Thomas Müntzer (1489-1525, executed for his role in the Peasants' War), who was heavily influenced by the Rhineland Mystic, Johannes Tauler (1300-1361).

"In him we live and move and have our being." "But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it."

This very scripture only supports what I am sharing here and what Luther also proclaimed the Word that is very new you is how we are to live and have our being. We need to love it and it needs to be in our heart so that we can do it.

Again it is not Eastern. It's an early Christian practice of prayer. Even if it's called a mantra because of similarity it is actually meant as a prayer not a mere repetition.

Nonsense. Mysticism predates Christianity and was practiced in the old testament occult and pagan religions as shown in the scriptures already provided above. Mysticism has roots in Shamanism, Buddism, Hinduism, the occult and other pagen religions. Go do your homework.

3rd Angel said: God does not work in the silence, but familiar spirits do.

Your response...

You may be familiar wit the "still small voice".

Indeed the "still small voice" is not "silence". Goodness I write this with all love and genuine concern. I hope you can receive this in the Spirit it was given. I believe that those who reject the Word of God in order to practice mysticism are being lead away from God. Run as fast as you can before it is too late.

May you receive God's Word and be blessed.
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
LOL, I've never heard of any catholic Saints or Doctors of the Church, who were mystics, chanting or doing anything like mantra. That's Buddhism. :D

Really? Never practiced Rosary beads in the Catholic Church? Read the definitions already provided above your post. There is more to mysticism than mantras. Mysticism is just an practice of the occult not dependant on the knowledge of what you are getting yourself into as shown in the earlier post above. o_O

You don't understand Christian Mysticism. You at least owe it to yourself to understand what it is you're arguing against... Because you're conflating Buudhism and Catholicism. I highly recommend reading the highly acclaimed book The Fulfillment of All Desire.
The Fulfillment of All Desire

Sure I do. I have discussed it in detail here. It is not biblical. It has no basis in real Christianity. It's origin is from outside of the scriptures and the bible. It's origin is in other religions and the occult predating christianity after the death of JESUS and the Apostles. It was never praticed by JESUS and the Apostles and the scriptures do not tell us to practice it. What ever name you try and put on it does not change what it is and where it comes from IMO. It is not of God and anyone professing to follow JESUS should run away from anything to do with it as fast as they can.
 
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dfnj

Well-Known Member
I was just curious if there were any warnings that need to be heeded in regards to Mysticism. I'd especially like to hear from Protestants, but the question is open to all.

Thanks,
Landon

People commit acts of evil. Everything in thought space is imaginary and irrelevant.
 

Cooky

Veteran Member
People commit acts of evil. Everything in thought space is imaginary and irrelevant.

Everything...Is imaginary...in "thought space"...

Okay, and your point? Because Catholic Mysticism doesn't deal in "thought space". It deals in the biblical scriptures specifically.
 
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Cooky

Veteran Member
Really? Never practiced Rosary beads in the Catholic Church? Read the definitions already provided above your post. There is more to mysticism than mantras. Mysticism is just an practice of the occult not dependant on the knowledge of what you are getting yourself into as shown in the earlier post above. o_O



Sure I do. I have discussed it in detail here. It is not biblical. It has no basis in real Christianity. It's origin is from outside of the scriptures and the bible. It's origin is in other religions and the occult predating christianity after the death of JESUS and the Apostles. It was never praticed by JESUS and the Apostles and the scriptures do not tell us to practice it. What ever name you try and put on it does not change what it is and where it comes from IMO. It is not of God and anyone professing to follow JESUS should run away from anything to do with it as fast as they can.

Trust me. You have NO CLUE what you're talking about.

You have never researched Catholic mysticism in your life, judging by all of your posts on the topic. The rosary is not mysticism.

Catholic Mysticism is ALL about the bible... But you'll never know that.
 
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Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
I was just curious if there were any warnings that need to be heeded in regards to Mysticism. I'd especially like to hear from Protestants, but the question is open to all.

Thanks,
Landon
I am no expert on Catholic mysticism :) but i would think that the mystic part of it has more to do with the more advanced teachings that maybe no longer are thought in churches but could be found in catholic monasteries around the word, here they actually practice it more like a cultivation path than a religion. So i would think the mystic is not evil at all just not very well known to non practitioners of catholic faith.
 

Cooky

Veteran Member
I am no expert on Catholic mysticism :) but i would think that the mystic part of it has more to do with the more advanced teachings that maybe no longer are thought in churches but could be found in catholic monasteries around the word, here they actually practice it more like a cultivation path than a religion. So i would think the mystic is not evil at all just not very well known to non practitioners of catholic faith.

Yes, true.

...It's unfortunate how many of the Protesters of Catholicism (Protestants) are willing to vilify anything Catholic, because Catholic = 666 in everything it does... Yet they don't even know what they're protesting against. :)

It's amusing to me actually. :)
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
Yes, true.

...It's unfortunate how many of the Protesters of Catholicism (Protestants) are willing to vilify anything Catholic, because Catholic = 666 in everything it does... Yet they don't even know what they're arguing against. :)

It's amusing to me actually. :)
Personally i do not think the Vatican form of Catholicism is the true catholic faith. And i guess many non Christians and many protestants see Vatican and the priesthood there as the true Catholics. I would think the more secluded monks are more in line with the true Catholic teaching :)
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
Trust me. You have NO CLUE what you're talking about.

You have never researched Catholic mysticism in your life, judging by all of your posts on the topic. The rosary is not mysticism.

Catholic Mysticism is ALL about the bible... But you'll never know that.

Trust me I do. I have already demonstrated this through the scriptures and outside of the scriptures quoting many difference sources. Your response is to simply close your eyes and ears and ignore everything that has been shared with you. It seems to me that the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church has more in common with the occult than the bible IMO. You simply close your eyes to this fact.
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
Yes, true.

...It's unfortunate how many of the Protesters of Catholicism (Protestants) are willing to vilify anything Catholic, because Catholic = 666 in everything it does... Yet they don't even know what they're protesting against.

It's amusing to me actually.

What started Protestantism in the first place were concerned Catholics from within the Church, that could see that the Church had departed the teachings of the prophets, JESUS and the Apostles. The Church departed the faith and was leading its' people away from God and his Word. Here we see a good example of this here in this very forum with those within the Catholic Church teaching the occult teachings of mysticism in place of the scriptures.
 

Cooky

Veteran Member
Trust me I do. I have already demonstrated this through the scriptures and outside of the scriptures quoting many difference sources. Your response is to simply close your eyes and ears and ignore everything that has been shared with you. It seems to me that the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church has more in common with the occult than the bible IMO. You simply close your eyes to this fact.

Where did you learn about Catholic Mysticism, that you think you can teach me what it is, when I'm telling you as a Catholic, that it is something else?

...It would be like someone telling you that Christianity and Sola Scriptura, are all about astrology, and that you should not read horoscopes, because that's what the bible teaches. Horoscopes.

...But the bible doesn't really teach about Gemini's, and Capricorns, does it..?

Can you understand how foolish your posts come off now? Knowing that you have never described Catholic Mysticism at all, which is based on studying and contemplation of the scriptures?

You are way off base from the topic. You're in another world right now, and you don't believe me, because you're too stubborn to actually find out the truth.
 
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Cooky

Veteran Member
those within the Catholic Church teaching the occult teachings of mysticism in place of the scriptures.

I've already told you several times that Catholic Mysticism must deal with the scriptures. It *IS* the study, understanding, and application of the scriptures... You absolutely don't know what you're talking about.
 
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Cooky

Veteran Member
<sigh>.....

If anyone is *actually* interested in understanding what Catholic Mysticism is, this is the book to read:

https://www.amazon.com/Fulfillment-...ocphy=9031581&hvtargid=pla-472856974309&psc=1

Mystical Theology in layman's language
Ralph Martin has pulled together mystical theology from some of my favorite saints. I had read the book but wanted to listen to it also. God has given him a gift of sharing the riches of our faith. Thank you, Ralph!

An Excellent Introduction to Mysticism
Drawing closer to God has remained a perpetual pursuit for humanity since time immemorial. This book is sophisticated and has substance, but is not written for the erudite theologian. Nor is it filled with psuedo-biblical gobbledy gook. In other words, the writing and concepts conveyed are accessible. I gleaned something significant for virtually every page. If you want an introduction to Catholic mysticism, read this book.
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
Not really my friend. I believe the difference in our discussion is that I am able to provide you with evidence for what I believe supported by the scriptures. You in turn simply deny everything with you and provide your own opinion that deny God's Word and teach that the teachings and traditions of men supersede the Word of God. This is simply not biblical. JESUS is his very own words teaches that all those who knowingly follow the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God are not following God *MATTHEW 15:2-9. Peter supports this view when stating that we ought to obey God rather then men *ACTS 5:29. So who should we believe and follow God or man? Nothing personal but your words deny Gods and I believe that only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it over man made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God *ROMANS 3:4 and for these reasons we will have to agree to disagree. Your own teachings I believe are leading you and others away from God and his Word in which is the only path we can find God and receive his salvation. This is only posted in love and as a help to you. May you receive God's Word and be blessed. Ignoring it does not make it disappear. It will be our judge come judgement day according to the scriptures *JOHN 12:47-48

I am afraid that you are in critical error about the nature of God and the Bible. The Bible was written by men who were imperfect. The teachings of Jesus were written by those who did not witness those teachings.

God is quite capable of communicating directly with an individual bypassing the Bible altogether. He is not limited by your thoughts on the matter.
 
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