Are there Bible proofs that Proselytism is wrong?

[Kenny]

Yes reading those words in the article of the Pope surprised me a bit. I also had the feeling "This is a bit too much for me". Pamphlets is OK with me too. And I love to listen to personal inspiring experiences of people. As long as there is "mutual equivalence" I like to share with others.

You are Pastor. I thought the difference between Evangelizing and Proselytizing has to do with "how you bring the Gospel". Where Proselytizing is the more aggressive approach (making claims instead of sharing opinions). Could you tell me what you see as the major difference? Does the below, how the Pope says it, is how you see it? (Feels quite good to me)

These quotes of the Pope show the difference between evangelizing and proselytizing :

Spoiler: Pope on Evangelizing:

Proper evangelization is a proclamation of Jesus without fear or apprehension that no one will listen. It arises out of our living relationship with Jesus through prayer, regular reception of the Sacraments, performing the works of mercy, and fulfilling the duties of our state in life. We become transparent to Jesus and so are living proclamations of the Gospel. We don't all need to be saints or scholars to evangelize; we simply need to love Jesus and be prepared to share that love with other people. At the same time, we are to present Jesus as clearly and as accurately as we can, so we must study Church teachings in Scripture and Tradition, learn the lives of the saints, and be prepared to defend the faith to the best of our ability.

Spoiler: Pope on Proselytizing

Proselytization, on the other hand, is essentially spiritual bullying, driven by the fear of God and the fear of neighbor. We fear that if we don't make converts, we are failures and will be punished, because we believe that making converts depends upon us and our efforts, rather than on our cooperation with the Holy Spirit. We fear that if our neighbors don't convert, there's something wrong with the Gospel or with ourselves. Proselytization isn't inspired by the Holy Spirit, whose fruits are "love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control" (Gal 5:22-23). Proselytization arises from the works of the flesh, whose bad fruits include "hatreds, rivalry, jealousy, outbursts of fury, acts of selfishness, dissensions, factions, occasions of envy" (Gal 5:20-21).

Evangelization goes out to others and listens to them;
proselytization excludes others and simply talks at them.

Evangelization is a proclamation of Jesus, allowing people to have an encounter with Christ;
proselytization is proud and convinced that it has all the answers.

Evangelization trusts in the Holy Spirit as the true evangelist, as the one who makes converts;
proselytization believes it's up to us, to the force of our arguments and persuasive power.

To summarize the Holy Father's points: evangelization is about trust, proselytization is about fear.

Let us trust in Jesus and the Holy Spirit to evangelize through us, if only we say yes to God, if only we act from love of God and neighbor.

If that is your definitions... then I would agree... I'm just not sure those are actual definitions or just one's personal definition to try to differentiate between the two. Regardless.... it is a free will process and not a forced process.

 

[stvdv]

If that is your definitions... then I would agree... I'm just not sure those are actual definitions or just one's personal definition to try to differentiate between the two. Regardless.... it is a free will process and not a forced process.

Those were the exact words of the "Pope" Himself. Not my definitions. Dictionary was less clear for me, hence I searched what the Pope had said.

 

[Kenny]

Those were the exact words of the "Pope" Himself. Not my definitions. Dictionary was less clear for me, hence I searched what the Pope had said.

The Pope and the Protestants don't always see eye to eye

 

[stvdv]

The Pope and the Protestants don't always see eye to eye

I know that they don't see eye to eye always. Sometimes is enough. When someone says good things I accept. Not good I discard.
I did not say that all I read in his article was good though. But it did give me a better picture what the difference between evangelizing/proselytizing is.

 

[Kenny]

I know that they don't see eye to eye always. Sometimes is enough. When someone says good things I accept. Not good I discard.
I did not say that all I read in his article was good though. But it did give me a better picture what the difference between evangelizing/proselytizing is.

STVDV - I didn't take it personal... you have been tops!

I agreed with your statement... just wasn't sure if the Pope's definition was correct.

 

[74x12]

2) Proselytizing is evangelizing, but thinking/speaking/acting arrogantly, as if you know best (also for others)

I have problem with that because you're redefining it for your own purposes. By your definition of course proselytizing is wrong because arrogance in general is wrong.

 

[stvdv]

I have problem with that because you're redefining it for your own purposes. By your definition of course proselytizing is wrong because arrogance in general is wrong.

I am not redefining Proselytizing. I just followed the definition of Merriam-Webster in reply #10 (about arrogance and proselytizing)
IMO, In short: If you enthusiastically share your love for God and Jesus with others, there is no arrogance.
I call it pure evangelizing. The moment you even get a thought of "My faith is superior than his (non) faith, that is per definition arrogance.
If you never have such thoughts, then there is no problem whatsoever it seems to me. Keep on spreading your Love for Jesus; the more the better.

 

[stvdv]

STVDV - I didn't take it personal... you have been tops!
I agreed with your statement... just wasn't sure if the Pope's definition was correct.

Good to hear.

I came across an interesting Bible verse I think. I am curious what you think about this.
No Other Gospel
6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!

* Do not do unto others, what you do not want others to do unto you

So, IF you don't want (under God's curse even; very strong "not want") others to preach to you a gospel other than what you accepted, then the Golden above rule tells us, as well as the above verse IMO, that we should only preach to people who believe in the same gospel.

And it explicitly tells "IF anybody is preaching". So that implies that it goes both ways (which was kind of obvious to me anyway).

This might not be such a bad idea anyway, because as the saying goes "change yourself, so change the world". It makes sense to get our own member first in 1 line IMO. When there is harmony in all the different versions of Christianity that itself would be good PR

That is the second time that I come across Galatians, giving me an interesting hidden meaning, I never heard other Christians talk about

 

[Deeje]

John 6:44. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
The Father draws him, NOT the proselytizer.

John 14:6. Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
NOT through the proselytizer.

Ephesians 2:8. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
NOT your doing, NOT the proselytizer, but a gift of God.

Isaiah 43:11. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
NO other, the proselytizer will not save you OR even help you find the way.
The only thing the proselytizer can do, is lead you to their religion, along with its falsities.

@stvdv At Romans 10: 13-18 the apostle Paul wrote...

"for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news of good things!”


16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.


18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have;

“Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
And their words to the ends of the world.” (NASB)

If God has a message that he wants all to hear, he will send out his messengers, and the message will either be accepted or rejected.....but there is obligation on the part of the messenger to speak up, otherwise God will hold them accountable for not delivering his message. It is after all....a life or death situation.

The prophet Ezekiel was told....
“Son of man, I have appointed you a watchman to the house of Israel; whenever you hear a word from My mouth, warn them from Me. 18 When I say to the wicked, ‘You will surely die,’ and you do not warn him or speak out to warn the wicked from his wicked way that he may live, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood I will require at your hand. 19 Yet if you have warned the wicked and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered yourself. 20 Again, when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I place an obstacle before him, he will die; since you have not warned him, he shall die in his sin, and his righteous deeds which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand. 21 However, if you have warned the righteous man that the righteous should not sin and he does not sin, he shall surely live because he took warning; and you have delivered yourself.” (Ezekiel 3:17-21 NASB)

Its not a case of "if" people "want" to hear the message....they may not want to hear it at all, but if you have at least tried to warn the wicked, or even those who assume that they are correct in their understanding but have completely missed the point, it is fulfilling your obligation to God and to our neighbors. So, it is the message itself that condemns them if they reject it. They have not accepted or rejected the messengers, but the one who sent them. (Matthew 24:14)

So, from my perspective, "evangelizing" is getting the message out there.....and "proselytizing" is teaching the responders what God requires of them so that they can make an informed decision about their future, based on accurate knowledge, not just on emotion or the opinion of others.

If what we choose to believe is not what God teaches, and his message means nothing to us, then it matters little about how much we love it or feel comfortable with our own preferences....we must change our thinking to suit God, because he will never change his truth to suit us.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I kind of like how the Bible says to preach* to all the world and at the same time to pray in secret.

*Bug, irritate, you get the picture

 

[Deeje]

I kind of like how the Bible says to preach* to all the world and at the same time to pray in secret.

*Bug, irritate, you get the picture

How are these two even connected in this context?

 

[stvdv]

I kind of like how the Bible says to preach* to all the world and at the same time to pray in secret.

*Bug, irritate, you get the picture

Thank you. I never saw this connection to proselytizing. Fantastic. Praying in secret is a wonderful way of preaching, by being a living example.

How are these two even connected in this context?

You need to think outside the box.
In one place the Bible tells "being proselytized with something different than your own religion is wrong" and other places it instructs to proselytize.

Bible is allegedly (according to some) true, so you must be smart, and find a way that both verses work. @Nowhere Man found 1.

 

[stvdv]

So, from my perspective, "evangelizing" is getting the message out there.....and "proselytizing" is teaching the responders what God requires of them so that they can make an informed decision about their future, based on accurate knowledge, not just on emotion or the opinion of others.

Thank you for giving the difference between evangelizing and proselytizing.
You say "from my perspective". So this is not a dictionary kind of definition? I could not find anything clear on the internet about the difference. You gave a simple to understand definition. Thanks a lot. Evangelizing is giving someone a Bible and Proselytizing is sitting with them and explain the Bible.

 

[Deeje]

Thank you for giving the difference between evangelizing and proselytizing.
You say "from my perspective". So this is not a dictionary kind of definition? I could not find anything clear on the internet about the difference. You gave a simple to understand definition. Thanks a lot. Evangelizing is giving someone a Bible and Proselytizing is sitting with them and explain the Bible.

Since a proselyte was a convert to the Jewish religion, that meant that a Gentile person who had heard about Israel’s God and wanted to worship him, had to learn what was required of them on becoming “Jewish”, and they would agree to abide by all the same laws as the Israelites did. These became bound by God’s laws by choice, but the natural Jews were bound by birth.

So evangelising is not just giving someone a Bible, but telling them the Bible’s message. Some will want to hear it and others will not, for a variety of reasons.

We remember that Jesus and his disciples originally preached their message only to the Jews....people who already believed in the same God....people who already had God’s word. So evangelism was not done to foreigners or unbelievers initially.

Jesus and his disciples were seen as a Jewish sect, who were preaching things that the Jewish leaders found offensive....an apostasy! But as is often the case, those pointing the finger were guilty of the same offence. True to their nature, Israel continued to find excuses for failing to obey their God. Jesus indicated that their part in God’s purpose was now complete. (Matthew 23:37-39) God would ‘abandon’ them as incorrigible. Their claim to be ‘sons of Abraham’ no longer carried any weight. (Matthew 3:7-10)

The “lost sheep of the house of Israel” responded to Jesus’ kindness and compassion in contrast to their cold legalistic shepherds, whom Jesus constantly exposed as merciless hypocrites. (Matthew ch 23) After Jesus left the earthly scene, Gentiles were invited into the fold but they did not have to convert to Judaism first. They became Christians by obeying Jesus’ teachings and exercising faith in his sacrifice.

Jesus was a teacher as well as a preacher. So to us, this demonstrates the value of both evangelism and proselytising....two separate elements in a Christian’s duty to invite others to gain everlasting life in paradise....it’s about inviting, not forcing our message on people. God does the rest. (John 6:44)

 

[stvdv]

So evangelising is not just giving someone a Bible, but telling them the Bible’s message

So to us, this demonstrates the value of both evangelism and proselytising

I thought I understood the difference between evangelizing and proselytizing. But now they seem the same again.

Please can you say in 1 line what proselytizing is, and what differs proselytizing from evangelizing?

 

[Deeje]

I thought I understood the difference between evangelizing and proselytizing. But now they seem the same again.

Please can you say in 1 line what proselytizing is, and what differs proselytizing from evangelizing?

As I mentioned before....
evangelizing is presenting the Christian message (preaching)......proselytizing is teaching people what the Bible says so that they can join you in serving God.

No one can make a commitment to God unless they know what they are committing to. We preach the message (evangelize) and those who respond are taught what is required of them to serve the God they have chosen to worship. (become converts or proselytes.)

Hope that has cleared things up...

 

[theQuestion]

Are there Bible proofs that Proselytism is wrong?

First of all what is the difference between Evangelizing vs Proselytizing?
IMO (very short):
1) Evangelizing is being enthusiastic about something and sharing it with others, who eagerly want to hear
2) Proselytizing is evangelizing, but thinking/speaking/acting arrogantly, as if you know best (also for others)

Hypothetical:
1) God is defined as: omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent
2) The Bible is the word of God and could be "perfect"

Even if there are mistakes in the Bible, this 'omni'-God could change it, if He deems it necessary. All Bibles He could change within seconds. But God did not do that, hence 2 options: No errors or God is fine with errors or...

a) There are no errors? We have gone over this on RF; no need to debate this here again.
b) Why would God allow errors (or inconsistencies)?
c) Why tell in 1 place to Proselytize, and in another don't Proselytize?
d) Would you go against God (if that's possible at all), when choosing one over the other (or choose both)?
(If you believe there are no errors, then you can remain silent. This OP is not about (dis)proving errors; just your opinion of the verse)

Now coming back to the OP's title. I found some verse, that clearly indicates "Proselytism is wrong". Also a verse that indicate "Proselytizing is right". As a Christian you must follow the Bible, so it seems you can choose. In this OP I decided to pick "do not Proselytize". Those who pick the other one, again, need not convince others that 'all' have to Proselytize. That would be Proselytizing itself. I am fine they believe that way, they may, but need not change.

*) I am curious if others found verses that clearly tell us "Do not proselytize".
*) This is not about "is this an error or not"
*) This is more about "I found errors", what I do now?
*) Accepting Bible inconsistencies. Figure out, "why God allowed errors". Why if God is omniscient etc.?
*) IF I have a problem with inconsistencies, does this problem lies within myself, or not?
*) If I have a problem with inconsistencies, how I solve it?

*) The solution "God does not exist in the first place" is ruled out in the beginning: Hypothetical-1).

I find this topic absurd; following the example of the King means we preach and make disciples of those who wish to serve God and Christ.
This Word Game is childish.

 

[stvdv]

Evangelizing is giving someone a Bible and Proselytizing is sitting with them and explain the Bible.

So evangelising is not just giving someone a Bible, but telling them the Bible’s message

"Giving someone a Bible", I meant symbolic for preaching, getting the message out (so including telling them)
"Sitting with them and explain" I meant symbolic for teaching, like Jesus sitting and explaining/teaching
But I understand why you replied this way, I was not clear with How I said it.

Jesus was a teacher as well as a preacher. So to us, this demonstrates the value of both evangelism and proselytising

Here I got them the wrong way around, and thought teacher/evangelism + preacher/proselytizing. But my confusion is now cleared

No one can make a commitment to God unless they know what they are committing to. We preach the message (evangelize) and those who respond are taught what is required of them to serve the God they have chosen to worship. (become converts or proselytes.)

Hope that has cleared things up...

Before I really had no clue about the difference. But now you explained it to me, I can hardly believe how simple it is
And I understand now, with the example of Jesus, how important it is for you to evangelize and proselytize
Thank you for your patience, not knowing the difference was bugging me for quite a while

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Are there Bible proofs that Proselytism is wrong?

Probably not. It's wrong - at least morally - IMO, but the basis of this is rooted more in basic respect for others, not in religious scriptures.

First of all what is the difference between Evangelizing vs Proselytizing?
IMO (very short):
1) Evangelizing is being enthusiastic about something and sharing it with others, who eagerly want to hear
2) Proselytizing is evangelizing, but thinking/speaking/acting arrogantly, as if you know best (also for others)

I disagree:

- Proselytizing is attempting to convert someone to your religion.
- Evangelism is Christian proselytizing.

 

[stvdv]

Hope that has cleared things up...

YES. First lesson finished. Now I know the difference.

Now another question

I came across an interesting Bible verse. I am curious what you think about this.

No Other Gospel: Galatians+1:6-9
6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!

Here it clearly says it's wrong that others preach to you (me) a gospel other than what you (me) accepted.
It is not just wrong, it's totally wrong, very bad, as they finish them off with "let them be under God's curse".

So others should not preach to you another gospel, and using the Golden Rule, you should not do to others
Golden Rule: "Do (not) unto others, what you (not) want others to do unto you"

I see 1 solution: before you preach you MUST check if they already have accepted another Gospel