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Are there Bible proofs that Proselytism is wrong?

Select any option you feel applies to you

  • YES: The Bible has inconsistencies

  • YES: The Bible gives verses To Proselytize and to not Proselytize

  • These inconsistencies are fine with me OR keeps me sharp

  • These inconsistencies made me decide to drop the Bible

  • I have a problem with the inconsistencies, but the problem lies not in me

  • I have a problem with the inconsistencies, so the problem lies in me

  • I see the inconsistencies as a challenge to not blindly follow the Bible

  • I believe Evangelism is okay

  • I believe Evangelism and Proselytism are okay

  • I believe Evangelism and Proselytism should not be done


Results are only viewable after voting.

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
c) Why tell in 1 place to Proselytize, and in another don't Proselytize?
Because the books of the Bible, written over centuries by many different authors, and then transcribed and edited by many people after that, represents and includes a range of positions. Some of these positions conflict.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
I find this topic absurd; following the example of the King means we preach and make disciples of those who wish to serve God and Christ.
This Word Game is childish.
Thank you for your opinion. Now you can show that you are more mature than I am
And tell me how you deal with the below verse.

I came across an interesting Bible verse. I am curious what you think about this.
No Other Gospel: Galatians+1:6-9
6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!

Here it clearly says it's wrong that others preach to you (me) a gospel other than what you (me) accepted.
It is not just wrong, it's totally wrong, very bad, as they finish them off with "let them be under God's curse".

So others should not preach to you another gospel, and using the Golden Rule, you should not do to others
Golden Rule: "Do (not) unto others, what you (not) want others to do unto you"

I see 1 solution: before you preach you MUST check if they already have accepted another Gospel
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I have problem with that because you're redefining it for your own purposes. By your definition of course proselytizing is wrong because arrogance in general is wrong.
Can there be proselytizing that isn't arrogant?

The whole idea behind proselytizing is that regardless of the other person's beliefs and how they came to them, the proselytizer assumes that their beliefs are so superior that it's a foregone conclusion that the "target" should abandon their beliefs and accept the proselytizer's beliefs instead.

I think this is inherently arrogant, whether it's phrased nicely or not.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
I disagree:

- Proselytizing is attempting to convert someone to your religion.
- Evangelism is Christian proselytizing.
Thank you for your clear definitions. True, it's Christians who evangelize.
I don't know other groups who evangelize (on such a grand scale). I was 10 years in India, and never once a Hindu tried to convert me into Hinduism. It was the opposite "No need to convert, all (non) faith are opportunities to reach your goal"

Probably not. It's wrong - at least morally - IMO, but the basis of this is rooted more in basic respect for others, not in religious scriptures.
I think I found the verse in the Bible, that clearly states that one should NOT evangelize other than the Gospel the person believes (see this)
When evangelizing is done, following this Bible verse (never try to convert someone to another Gospel or (non)faith, I am fine with evangelizing I think)
But if you still see a problem, please let me know (so evangelizing is fine, when one tries to get each other enthusiastic it seems to me, according the Bible)
 
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Peter Son

Member
Thank you for your clear definitions. True, it's Christians who evangelize.
I don't know other groups who evangelize (on such a grand scale). I was 10 years in India, and never once a Hindu tried to convert me into Hinduism. It was the opposite "No need to convert, all (non) faith are opportunities to reach your goal"


I think I found the verse in the Bible, that clearly states that one should NOT evangelize other than the Gospel the person believes (see this)
When evangelizing is done, following this Bible verse (never try to convert someone to another Gospel, Religion, I am fine with evangelizing I think)
I think it's wrong on one side and not on other. But personally, I think it's wrong!
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
I think it's wrong on one side and not on other.
Do you mean non-Christians are not allowed to try to convert Christians
But Christians are allowed to try to convert non-Christians

That sounds hypocritical to me, and Jesus is not know for being hypocritical IMO
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
I have problem with that because you're redefining it for your own purposes. By your definition of course proselytizing is wrong because arrogance in general is wrong.
Thank you. I did not redefine proselytizing. Trying to convert someone out of his own faith into yours is per definition arrogant

And IMO, below Bible verse very clearly states that proselytizing is wrong in the sense NEVER try to convert someone away from his faith

I came across this interesting Bible verse. I am curious what you think about this.
No Other Gospel: Galatians+1:6-9
6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!

Here it clearly says it's wrong that others preach to you (me) a gospel other than what you (me) accepted.
It is not just wrong, it's totally wrong, very bad, as they finish them off with "let them be under God's curse".

So others should not preach to you another gospel, and using the Golden Rule, you should not do to others
Golden Rule: "Do (not) unto others, what you (not) want others to do unto you"

I see 1 solution: before you preach you MUST check if they already have accepted another Gospel
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Thank you for your clear definitions. True, it's Christians who evangelize.
I don't know other groups who evangelize (on such a grand scale).
No, I meant that "evangelism" is the Christian term for proselytizing for Christianity.

Any attempt by Christians to convert someone to Christianity - from the conversion at swordpoint of the Northern Crusades all the way to a local church quietly offering an Alpha course without imposing on anyone - is evangelism.

Non-Christians don't evangelize for the same reason that Taoists don't have gurdawaras and Christians don't have imams: terms like "evangelize," "gurdwara," and "imam" are specific to certain religions.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
No, I meant that "evangelism" is the Christian term for proselytizing for Christianity.
Deeje just gave me her definition of both. Evangelizing = spreading the message, whereas proselytizing = teaching others about the message
Both methods are working toward the same goal, as I see it, which is "they try to convert others to Christianity and away from their (non)faith".
Hence, your definitions do make sense to me. Thank you.

Any attempt by Christians to convert someone to Christianity - from the conversion at swordpoint of the Northern Crusades all the way to a local church quietly offering an Alpha course without imposing on anyone - is evangelism.
Right, I understand it now. Both are called "proselytizing", and can also be called "evangelizing", because it's done by Christians. Thank you.
 

theQuestion

Member
Thank you for your opinion. Now you can show that you are more mature than I am
And tell me how you deal with the below verse.

I came across an interesting Bible verse. I am curious what you think about this.


Here it clearly says it's wrong that others preach to you (me) a gospel other than what you (me) accepted.
It is not just wrong, it's totally wrong, very bad, as they finish them off with "let them be under God's curse".

So others should not preach to you another gospel, and using the Golden Rule, you should not do to others
Golden Rule: "Do (not) unto others, what you (not) want others to do unto you"

I see 1 solution: before you preach you MUST check if they already have accepted another Gospel
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul preached , taught the Good News about God's Kingdom, which, of course, included how Jesus was the King.
The 'other' good news that deceivers were teaching was fake. Like today's 'Gospel' in Churchianity- that they don't even BELIEVE!

NOWHERE does that say NOT to preach and teach as Jesus commanded.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul preached , taught the Good News about God's Kingdom, which, of course, included how Jesus was the King.
The 'other' good news that deceivers were teaching was fake. Like today's 'Gospel' in Churchianity- that they don't even BELIEVE!

NOWHERE does that say NOT to preach and teach as Jesus commanded.
If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!
You missed completely the whole point, that I explained here
Don't do unto others, what you don't want them to do unto you
So clearly this implies that you should not preach to others, another gospel than what others accepted.
Otherwise you act like a hypocrite. And show no respect for other people's Faith. Thinking your Faith is superior.

Do you think your Faith is superior, maybe?
 
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Jeremiah Ames

Well-Known Member
@stvdv At Romans 10: 13-18 the apostle Paul wrote...

"for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news of good things!”


16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.


18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have;

Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
And their words to the ends of the world.” (NASB)


If God has a message that he wants all to hear, he will send out his messengers, and the message will either be accepted or rejected.....but there is obligation on the part of the messenger to speak up, otherwise God will hold them accountable for not delivering his message. It is after all....a life or death situation.

The prophet Ezekiel was told....
“Son of man, I have appointed you a watchman to the house of Israel; whenever you hear a word from My mouth, warn them from Me. 18 When I say to the wicked, ‘You will surely die,’ and you do not warn him or speak out to warn the wicked from his wicked way that he may live, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood I will require at your hand. 19 Yet if you have warned the wicked and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered yourself. 20 Again, when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I place an obstacle before him, he will die; since you have not warned him, he shall die in his sin, and his righteous deeds which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand. 21 However, if you have warned the righteous man that the righteous should not sin and he does not sin, he shall surely live because he took warning; and you have delivered yourself.” (Ezekiel 3:17-21 NASB)

Its not a case of "if" people "want" to hear the message....they may not want to hear it at all, but if you have at least tried to warn the wicked, or even those who assume that they are correct in their understanding but have completely missed the point, it is fulfilling your obligation to God and to our neighbors. So, it is the message itself that condemns them if they reject it. They have not accepted or rejected the messengers, but the one who sent them. (Matthew 24:14)

So, from my perspective, "evangelizing" is getting the message out there.....and "proselytizing" is teaching the responders what God requires of them so that they can make an informed decision about their future, based on accurate knowledge, not just on emotion or the opinion of others.

If what we choose to believe is not what God teaches, and his message means nothing to us, then it matters little about how much we love it or feel comfortable with our own preferences....we must change our thinking to suit God, because he will never change his truth to suit us.
It is quite possible for a person to believe “in the name of Jesus” without ever hearing of him.
What is the “name” of Jesus?
Proverbs 22:1 A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches, and loving favour rather than silver and gold
This surely isn’t speaking about naming your child Joshua instead of Mortimer.
It’s about choices. We all must choose. I choose thousands of times per day.
The choice is between my name and the Lord’s name. No other person on this earth can help me with those choices.
 

theQuestion

Member
If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!
You missed completely the whole point, that I explained here
Don't do unto others, what you don't want them to do unto you
So clearly this implies that you should not preach to others, another gospel than what others accepted.
Otherwise you act like a hypocrite. And show no respect for other people's Faith. Thinking your Faith is superior.

Do you think your Faith is superior, maybe?
--------------------------------------------------
Man, have you got THAT backwards!
If I was Deceived, I would LOVE anyone that helped me see thru it!
Mormons, and the occasional church-goer knocking on my door to 'preach' and invite me to their church doesn't offend or bother ME; why does it YOU?
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
--------------------------------------------------
Man, have you got THAT backwards!
If I was Deceived, I would LOVE anyone that helped me see thru it!
Mormons, and the occasional church-goer knocking on my door to 'preach' and invite me to their church doesn't offend or bother ME; why does it YOU?
I don't get that backwards.
You got it backwards, comparing apples with pears.
Of course there is no problem when a Christians proselytizes other Christians
That is exactly the point, the apostle Paul was making, and I explained

The problem only starts, Paul his words, if someone tries to impose his faith on someone who already got another faith.

I just quote a verse from the Bible Galatians 1.
So you are saying Paul, the apostle, got it backwards?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
:) YES. First lesson finished. Now I know the difference.

Now another question

I came across an interesting Bible verse. I am curious what you think about this.

"I am amazed that you are so quickly turning away from the One who called you with Christ’s undeserved kindness to another sort of good news. 7 Not that there is another good news; but there are certain ones who are causing you trouble and wanting to distort the good news about the Christ. 8 However, even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to you as good news something beyond the good news we declared to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, I now say again, Whoever is declaring to you as good news something beyond what you accepted, let him be accursed."

Yes it is true that the good news was about God's Kingdom and what that would mean for mankind and the mending of their relationship with God.

The problem was that God's Kingdom got all muddled up in the minds of some and they started to preach something different about it. For example, the Bible taught that God's Kingdom was the restoration of God's rulership over the earth....that it was a real government and that it would "come" and remove all failed human rulership and replace it. (Daniel 2:44)

But for some reason, those who thought they knew better, changed that to a misinterpretation of Jesus statement "the kingdom of God is within you"...and ran away with this idea that God's kingdom was an emotional experience in the heart of one who became a disciple. That was "good news" other than what the Master taught. It is to be rejected and those who teach lies are to be under God's curse because they lead others astray. As time passed, their lies just compounded until what they taught did not resemble the original at all. This is Christendom....

Here it clearly says it's wrong that others preach to you (me) a gospel other than what you (me) accepted.
It is not just wrong, it's totally wrong, very bad, as they finish them off with "let them be under God's curse".

Exactly. This is a fake kind of good news that is mostly incomprehensible. If you ask 10 different "Christian" religions what God's Kingdom is, you will get 10 different answers. So how can the good news be preached by these ones if they have no idea what its all about? They just confuse people and make them want to walk away from it all.

So others should not preach to you another gospel, and using the Golden Rule, you should not do to others
Golden Rule: "Do (not) unto others, what you (not) want others to do unto you"

I see 1 solution: before you preach you MUST check if they already have accepted another Gospel

Not quite.....

Actually, you have to study what you believe very carefully because the twisted version of things can sound right if its presented to those who have no knowledge in the first place. Like sponges, they soak it up without realizing that its not the truth. The lies they have been taught need to be exposed and the truth explained....this is what Jesus did. Those who listened to him left off from their old way of worship and found a new acceptable way to please their God. When Jesus was transfigured, God's voice was heard to say..."This is my son the beloved, listen to him".

The Golden Rule applies in that...if you would like someone to expose lies, and teach you the truth, then you would want to do that for others. No?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
It is quite possible for a person to believe “in the name of Jesus” without ever hearing of him.
What is the “name” of Jesus?

And here is where the confusion begins. It isn't a case of just believing in the name of Jesus. Becoming a Christian meant so much more than that.

We have to believe as Christ believed...and to live our lives as he instructed us to do. What I see today is a lot of people calling themselves "Christians" but not not living up to the meaning of the title.

What do you think it means to BE a Christian in today's world, compared to what it meant in the first century?

Proverbs 22:1 A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches, and loving favour rather than silver and gold
This surely isn’t speaking about naming your child Joshua instead of Mortimer.
It’s about choices. We all must choose. I choose thousands of times per day.
The choice is between my name and the Lord’s name. No other person on this earth can help me with those choices.

Our name is our reputation not just our handle. In order to make "a good name" for ourselves with God, requires that we follow Christ's teachings to the letter....not picking and choosing what we will, or won't do based on personal preference or convenience.

Some examples.....
If Jesus teaches us to love our enemies and yet the churches teach that its OK to kill them...who do we obey?
Can we join the military and train to kill other human beings? Is that OK with God? (Read Matthew 5)

If Jesus tells us that satan is the ruler of this world and that he is the unseen power behind "all the kingdoms of the world".....should we be involved in politics? Can we vote someone into office without accepting responsibility for what they do with the power that we helped to give them? (1 John 5:19; Luke 4:5-8)

If Jesus said that we are to preach the good news of God's kingdom, but your church does not promote that activity....who should you obey? (Matthew 10:11-15; Matthew 28:19-20; Matthew 24:14)

If the institution of marriage and divorce have become a bit of a joke these days and people decide to live together without marriage, or those who have no scriptural right to get married want to.....if your church takes the easy road but it is against what the Bible teaches, who will you obey? (Matthew 5; Romans 1:26-28)

I believe that our response to questions like these determines whether we have made a name with God....or not. What about you?
 
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stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
It is to be rejected and those who teach lies are to be under God's curse because they lead others astray
Yes, people who teach about God, have a huge responsibility, they better have their facts straight, and many have not (many different denominations)

As time passed, their lies just compounded until what they taught did not resemble the original at all. This is Christendom....
Yes, if the truth is ONE, then all having different interpretations makes a big mess, can't be the Truth. In Dutch "Christendom (means not smart)"

If you ask 10 different "Christian" religions what God's Kingdom is, you will get 10 different answers
Yes, we really need Jesus to set things straight it seems. Humans will never be able to do that themselves I think.

how can the good news be preached by these ones if they have no idea what its all about? They just confuse people and make them want to walk away from it all.
When I was 10 years old, I told my mother "IF Jesus is on earth, I go to Him". That's the only solution to get it 100% right, from the source, IMO.

The Golden Rule applies in that...if you would like someone to expose lies, and teach you the truth, then you would want to do that for others. No?
That is true.

But still the below verse stands. It clearly states that others should not declare to us as good news something beyond what we accepted
Whoever is declaring to you as good news something beyond what you accepted, let him be accursed
So, whenever I speak to others, I will first check if I am not going against this verse. Others can ignore it, that's there free choice, but I won't.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts on these verses.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
Do we call teachers at schools arrogant? They want to teach children? Love/care for others is also a motive in proselytizing. That doesn't mean some people are not motivated by arrogance. But some do actually care and so they want to teach people.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
I came across this interesting Bible verse. I am curious what you think about this.
The context is important as a letter written to the church in Galatia which Paul had founded. He is basically telling them not to believe anyone who contradicts what he(Paul) had already taught them.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
The context is important as a letter written to the church in Galatia which Paul had founded. He is basically telling them not to believe anyone who contradicts what he(Paul) had already taught them.
Exactly. And he repeats twice, that this so called proselytizing is wrong.

So, still the below verse stands.
No Other Gospel: Galatians+1:8-9
8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again:
If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!

You missed the whole point

Don't do unto others, what you don't want them to do unto you

If others are condemned, when proselytizing a different gospel to you, then this clearly implies, that you are condemned, when you preach a different gospel to others. It's called mutual respect for each other's faith.

Otherwise you act like a hypocrite. And show no respect for other people's Faith, while expecting them to show respect for your Faith. Thinking your Faith is superior is the main reason IMO, that people think that rules for others don't apply to them.

Do you think your Faith is superior than other (non) faith, maybe?
 
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