Yucca plant and Yucca moth, evolution or creation?

[We Never Know]

This may be interesting.

Without the yucca moth, the yucca plant would lose its only pollinator and die, and without the plant, the moth would lose its food source and die.
Each depends on the other for reproduction/survival.

How did they survive without the other before or..see poll.

 

[Cooky]

This may be interesting.

Without the yucca moth, the yucca plant would lose its only pollinator and die, and without the plant, the moth would lose its food source and die.
Each depends on the other for reproduction/survival.

How did they survive without the other before or..see poll.

Good question. It's amazing how things are, especially this plant I photographed the other day, that just happens to open up to reveal tasty looking seeds, that a bird would probably eat, and pass on somewhere else, effectively ensuring the plants continued survival.

Convenient mutations amaze me.

 

[SomeRandom]

Isn’t this just what they call “coevolution.”
Coevolution - Wikipedia

 

[ratiocinator]

Isn’t this just what they call “coevolution.”
Coevolution - Wikipedia

Exactly - this example is actually given in the article.

Neither answer is really correct - the actual answer is that both their ancestors existed and then evolved the co-dependency.

 

[We Never Know]

Good question. It's amazing how things are, especially this plant I photographed the other day, that just happens to open up to reveal tasty looking seeds, that a bird would probably eat, and pass on somewhere else, effectively ensuring the plants continued survival.

Convenient mutations amaze me.

View attachment 33936

That's pretty cool looking. What kind of plant is that?

 

[We Never Know]

Isn’t this just what they call “coevolution.”
Coevolution - Wikipedia

I would agree it's very similar, with the difference being in the OP it's only about 2 species and each relies on the other for survival. Without one, the other dies/doesn't reproduce. Its my understanding in most co-evolution instances it involves more than 2 species.

 

[SomeRandom]

Exactly - this example is actually given in the article.

Neither answer is really correct - the actual answer is that both their ancestors existed and then evolved the co-dependency.

I guess I should really try to figure this out myself, but like how does such an evolution occur?
Like does the plant (in this case) get pollenated more frequently by certain animals and therefore slowly develops a codependent relationship? Or like is it more of a mutual thing or?

 

[SomeRandom]

I would agree it's very similar, with the difference being in the OP it's only about 2 species and each relies on the other for survival. Without one, the other dies/doesn't reproduce. Its my understanding in most co-evolution instances it involves more than 2 species.

Umm the Yucca plant is literally specified in the Wikipedia article I linked. So no, it just has to be a species reliant on another to be convolution.

 

[We Never Know]

Exactly - this example is actually given in the article.

Neither answer is really correct - the actual answer is that both their ancestors existed and then evolved the co-dependency.

I don't see it as that simple. Yes they evolved coexistence over time as I stated but as in solely the plant and the moth, did they evolve at the exact same time or was there something else before the moth evolved that pollinated the plant? Do we know what it was?
or before the plant evolved was there something else the moth ate? Do we know what it was?

 

[We Never Know]

Umm the Yucca plant is literally specified in the Wikipedia article I linked. So no, it just has to be a species reliant on another to be convolution.

Yes it's mentioned in the article. It has to be being there is no other explanation. What it doesn't tell us is how and what came before to aid in evolving that coexistence.

 

[SomeRandom]

Yes it's mentioned in the article. It has to be being there is no other explanation. What it doesn't tell us is how and what came before to aid in evolving that coexistence.

Environmental factors would be my guess. Though I’m not a trained biologist.

 

[We Never Know]

Environmental factors would be my guess. Though I’m not a trained biologist.

I am not either. However it would be interesting to know how they evolved only depending on each other for survival.
Examples...
Did the moth already exist and have the same co-dependancy with a plant the yucca plant evolved from, or vise-versa?

Did a different species of moth and plant already have the co-dependency then evolved together over time into the two new yucca species?

It would be interesting to know.

 

[SomeRandom]

I am not either. However it would be interesting to know how they evolved only depending on each other for survival.
Examples...
Did the moth already exist and have the same co-dependancy on a plant the yucca plant evolved from, or vise-versa?

Did a different species of moth and plant already have the co-dependency then evolved together over time into the two new yucca species?

It would be interesting to know.

Asking the wrong person.
I suppose if we look at what coevolution is as a phenomenon, we could maybe tease out an answer to satisfy our laymen brains.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

I don't see it as that simple. Yes they evolved coexistence over time as I stated but as in solely the plant and the moth, did they evolve at the exact same time or was there something else before the moth evolved that pollinated the plant? Do we know what it was?
or before the plant evolved was there something else the moth ate? Do we know what it was?

The dependency between them would have developed over time - with both of them relying on other, probably less efficient, means of survival in any other "forms" they took along the way - and we're talking hundreds of thousands of years here, or more - no one could really say without actual evidence like fossils - which still might not even provide enough information to reach insight. Somewhere along the way, the relationship became so efficient and worthwhile to both species that they didn't need any other means of survival, and so those other "parts" of them (or other processes their development went through to survive via other means) became unimportant... and just like the eyes of fish who have lived in caves for many thousands of generations, they lost those parts (or utility of them), because if something isn't a benefit, then it is most likely a hindrance, and would be weeded out in the process of natural selection.

 

[ratiocinator]

I don't see it as that simple. Yes they evolved coexistence over time as I stated but as in solely the plant and the moth, did they evolve at the exact same time or was there something else before the moth evolved that pollinated the plant? Do we know what it was?
or before the plant evolved was there something else the moth ate? Do we know what it was?

Co-evolution in general happens simply because each species is a significant part of the other's environment and so dictates selection pressures. It's probably easier to see in predator prey relationships, when you can get evolutionary "arms races", each small advantage for one becomes a pressure for the other. Mutual dependency is just the inverse, the more accommodating to the mutual relationship each becomes, the better its survival chances.

I didn't know anything about this particular example but it seems it's not such a clear case, I found this:

Evolutionary GEM: Coevolution of Yuccas and Yucca Moths | Western Undergraduate Research Journal: Health and Natural Sciences

The relationship between yucca moths and yucca plants is an example of obligate mutualism. Many species of yucca plant can be pollinated by only one species of yucca moth, while those yucca moths use the yucca flowers as a safe space to lay their eggs. The traits found in yucca plants and yucca moths that enabled them to cooperate were originally suspected to have arisen due to coevolution. However, the majority of these traits appear to have been present before yuccas became the host plant. In addition, there is a delay in speciation of yucca moth lineages when compared with the phylogenies of yucca plants, suggesting that coevolution was not the main driving force of the mutualistic relationship between the two species. Yucca moths may have acquired adaptations as selection drove the populations to complement the unique template already established by yucca plants.
​

More here: Google Scholar

 

[metis]

This may be interesting.

Without the yucca moth, the yucca plant would lose its only pollinator and die, and without the plant, the moth would lose its food source and die.
Each depends on the other for reproduction/survival.

How did they survive without the other before or..see poll.

Symbiotic relationships between two life forms do not have to start out that way. If the host species is abundant enough, then an insect like that moth could possibly survive on that alone.

However, what we also have seen is symbiotic relationships that can change, such as with some bacterium being able to digest oil from the ground that it previously couldn't consume.

 

[We Never Know]

Co-evolution in general happens simply because each species is a significant part of the other's environment and so dictates selection pressures. It's probably easier to see in predator prey relationships, when you can get evolutionary "arms races", each small advantage for one becomes a pressure for the other. Mutual dependency is just the inverse, the more accommodating to the mutual relationship each becomes, the better its survival chances.

I didn't know anything about this particular example but it seems it's not such a clear case, I found this:

Evolutionary GEM: Coevolution of Yuccas and Yucca Moths | Western Undergraduate Research Journal: Health and Natural Sciences

The relationship between yucca moths and yucca plants is an example of obligate mutualism. Many species of yucca plant can be pollinated by only one species of yucca moth, while those yucca moths use the yucca flowers as a safe space to lay their eggs. The traits found in yucca plants and yucca moths that enabled them to cooperate were originally suspected to have arisen due to coevolution. However, the majority of these traits appear to have been present before yuccas became the host plant. In addition, there is a delay in speciation of yucca moth lineages when compared with the phylogenies of yucca plants, suggesting that coevolution was not the main driving force of the mutualistic relationship between the two species. Yucca moths may have acquired adaptations as selection drove the populations to complement the unique template already established by yucca plants.
​

More here: Google Scholar

Interesting. That's seems to be not as simple as just co-evolution. Thanks for the post.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yes it's mentioned in the article. It has to be being there is no other explanation. What it doesn't tell us is how and what came before to aid in evolving that coexistence.

Most rational explanation.


It may be testable.