Excuses, excuses

[sojourner]

Good question. Assuming for a moment that there is a supreme being called "God," then either He really is as evil as depicted in the book. Or maybe He is actually good and the book itself is a pack of lies.

So, I guess one could still continue to be a believer while throwing out the book.

I've spoken to some believers who might not believe everything in the book literally. They might say (in regards to some of the atrocities attributed to God) "I can't believe in a God that would do that, so my God is not like that."

So, apparently, one can believe in any version of God one wishes, tailored to fit within a certain set of values and principles. It's all very convenient, and since the whole idea is pretty much a product of human imagination, God can be whatever anyone wants Him to be.

Which would be fine if that’s How it Really Worked. But it doesn’t.

 

[1213]

If the Biblical god character exists and is as evil as that book depicts as being , why do some believers make excuses for its disgusting behaviour?

It is interesting, if you think Bible God is evil. After all, Bible God commands us to love other and do good. And if people are evil, God doesn’t let evil to continue forever. I think it would be evil, if God would be something else.

 

[sojourner]

Isn't it at least a little arrogant? Do you go around telling your wife, your children, your parents, or your friends that "YOU MUST LOVE ME."? Do you do that? No? Why not? Isn't that what a "perfect" being does? Well? By your estimation - isn't it?

Can you list specific instances — with references — where God does that?

 

[JesusKnowsYou]

Skipped right over the part where he "sent a flood" and
killed all the baby koala bears, huh?

MISSED the part where he send a minion-angle to kill
all those children in Egypt.

Read it again.

Or maybe you dont find anything to be "evil"
if the book sez "god" did it.

Both of those things happened and I don't see anything wrong with them.

I'm sad that they had to happen, but that doesn't mean it was "evil" to do it.

I believe that if you came to know more about God, our relationship to Him and the concept of eternity - you would come to understand that these are not evil things.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Can you list some SPECIFIC ways (with references) in which God is depicted as being evil?

He thinks slavery is ok.
He thinks homosexuals should be killed.
He thinks witches should be killed (which implies he believes wtiches are real)
He thinks disobedient children should be killed.
He thinks that it's "justice" to force a rapist to marry his victim.
He thinks women are inferior to men and in several instances actually groups them together with cattle.
He thinks that the guilt of crimes of parents can be inherited by off spring
He thinks that punishing a scapegoat somehow absolves others of their responsabilities
He orders genocides and infantacide.
He himself engages in genocide and infantacide
He set up a system where gullibility gains you an eternal reward, no matter how bad and evil you were during life, while it hands out eternal punishment to people who prefer rational skepticism over gullibility, no matter how good those people were during their life
He tampered with the free will of Pharaoh ("hardenth his heart") to explicitly prevent him from releasing hebrew slaves when he was considering it, just so he could show off a bit more with his plagues and by doing so punish innocent egyptians who had nothing to do with pharao's decisions. Well... god's decisions actually, since he intervened in pharaoh's free will to force him to disobey....
etc etc etc....


I could go on for quite a while, actually.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I have read the Bible many times and have yet to see the God depicted therein do anything "evil" nor does it describe that Being exhibiting any "disgusting behaviour".

Do you have any specific examples that you'd like to discuss or did you keep your question vague because you knew that getting into specifics would dismantle your argument?

He ordered genocide. How about that?

 

[sojourner]

"God" in bold, above being of course the shorthand way
of saying "the god invented by the people of the time, to
reflect the values of the time.

Then why aren’t you reading the Bible through the lens of the time?

 

[sojourner]

if there is a god, it's principle trait must be, it's entirely indifferent as to the fate of humanity, let alone any of it's individuals

And that conclusion follows from what logical premise?

The proof, is the bible itself, of course: Within that book, we see countless examples wherein it's god (as described) does horrific things to individuals and to whole peoples too.

For the most trivial of things: the "wrong" sort of person touches the Magic Ark, and? *BOOM* dead right there

What specific horrific things are done? To whom specifically? What was the relationship of these people to the biblical authors?

Such a monster would never have permitted the airplane to be invented: Look at the tower of Babel. Let alone rockets and satellites

How does that follow from the story of the tower?

 

[sojourner]

There is very little that is historical in the Bible, and also very little that is credible.

And that addresses his point ... how, again?

 

[JesusKnowsYou]

He ordered genocide. How about that?

He did? Build your case. Provide references.

Let's hash this out.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

In what way is God “fine” with either persecution of homosexuals, or with slavery as we define it today?

Read the bible.

"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them."


As for slavery, just read exodus. It literally regulates the practice, explaining into disturbing detail who you can and can not enslave, how to trade in slaves, how your off spring can inherit them, how they are "your money", how you can beat them as long as they don't die "within a day or two"...

It's kind of hard to read the bible and walk away thinking god hates slavery and loves gay people.

 

[Audie]

Both of those things happened and I don't see anything wrong with them.

I'm sad that they had to happen, but that doesn't mean it was "evil" to do it.

I believe that if you came to know more about God, our relationship to Him and the concept of eternity - you would come to understand that these are not evil things.

Your first sentence says it all.

And if you happened to be a 14 yr old virgin, and
the soldiers came, killed all of your family but
you-then forcibly stripped you so they acn
examine your vagina and see if you are a virgin,
(if not you will be killed)...
And since you are a virgin you are carried away
to be a sex slave.

I expect you'd see nothing wrong with that either.

Or if it were your daughter; no prob.

Total and absolute moral bankruptcy.

The sooner we drive a stake thro the heart of
such a religion the better.

 

[JesusKnowsYou]

Your first sentence says it all.

And if you happened to be a 14 yr old virgin, and
the soldiers came, killed all of your family but
you-then forcibly stripped you so they acn
examine your vagina and see if you are a virgin,
(if not you will be killed)...
And since you are a virgin you are carried away
to be a sex slave.

I expect you'd see nothing wrong with that either.

Or if it were your daughter; no prob.

Total and absolute moral bankruptcy.

The sooner we drive a stake thro the heart of
such a religion the better.

You're heading into the weeds.

Why not first stick with those claims you originally made.

Why was a global Flood an "evil" thing to do?

 

[Audie]

You're heading into the weeds.

Why not first stick with those claims you originally made.

Why was a global Flood an "evil" thing to do?

You are running away from the reality of what you think
is groovy.

 

[sojourner]

So the exact opposite of what you do with your bible, as per your own acknolwedgement....

So what's that about?

What do you think is the “proper” use of the Bible?

And clearly, this moral reasoning and contemplation that you do, you do using tools not present in your bible

This smacks of the sola scriptura, inerrant scripture nonsense.

Because if you read in your bible that mosaic law considers nothing wrong with the practice of slavery, your reasoning tells you this is not correct, because YOU consider it immoral

What kind of slavery? Can you be specific with a reference?

Obviously, not only you don't need to bible for moral guidance

That’s not what the Bible is for. The Judaic people didn’t have texts for millennia. The Christians didn’t have a bible for 450 years.

I'm an atheist and I think the bible (along with the quran and other scriptures) is an immoral, unethical, brutal, primitive, barbarian piece of garbage. I don't need it, I don't want it, I don't invoke it

Then don’t read it! We’re Christians and we don’t see it that way. And it’s our book, so what dog do you have in this fight?

And I think altruism, empathy, compassion, solidarity,... all those are good values that we all should uphold. And I come to that reasoned conclusion on purely secular means. No gods, religions or scriptures required. At all

Fun fact: Those are all spiritual values.

You can't do it. Because pretty much the only thing this book says about gays, is that you should kill them

Where? Be specific and provide references.

But still, from my perspective: this books seems completely useless in your life

Your perspective doesn’t count in his life.

 

[JesusKnowsYou]

Read the bible.

"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them."


As for slavery, just read exodus. It literally regulates the practice, explaining into disturbing detail who you can and can not enslave, how to trade in slaves, how your off spring can inherit them, how they are "your money", how you can beat them as long as they don't die "within a day or two"...

It's kind of hard to read the bible and walk away thinking god hates slavery and loves gay people.

God hates the idea of His children engaging in sexual relations outside of marriage.

With that in mind, do you think He would want an unmarried couple to have protected sex or not?

God works with us. He wants to minimize harm.

If we are unwilling to keep His commandments for any reason - even societal norms - then He will still do what He can to help us minimize harm.

The world that ancient Israel was a part of was one of slavery. God taught them how best to live in that world while minimizing harm.

Homosexuality was a sin that spread like wildfire among ancient peoples and led to many worse sins.

Leaving this world is not the worst thing that can happen to us.

 

[sojourner]

Skipped right over the part where he "sent a flood" and
killed all the baby koala bears, huh?

MISSED the part where he send a minion-angle to kill
all those children in Egypt.

Read it again

I believe YOU need to read it again. What do those passages mean? (Hint: don’t take them at face value - these are mythic and highly metaphoric accounts). the “meaning” isn’t “God’s a bad dude.” the meaning is something else entirely, and you’re either missing it entirely because you haven’t done your due diligence, or you’re just trying to poke the bear.

 

[sojourner]

He thinks slavery is ok.
He thinks homosexuals should be killed.
He thinks witches should be killed (which implies he believes wtiches are real)
He thinks disobedient children should be killed.
He thinks that it's "justice" to force a rapist to marry his victim.
He thinks women are inferior to men and in several instances actually groups them together with cattle.
He thinks that the guilt of crimes of parents can be inherited by off spring
He thinks that punishing a scapegoat somehow absolves others of their responsabilities
He orders genocides and infantacide.
He himself engages in genocide and infantacide
He set up a system where gullibility gains you an eternal reward, no matter how bad and evil you were during life, while it hands out eternal punishment to people who prefer rational skepticism over gullibility, no matter how good those people were during their life
He tampered with the free will of Pharaoh ("hardenth his heart") to explicitly prevent him from releasing hebrew slaves when he was considering it, just so he could show off a bit more with his plagues and by doing so punish innocent egyptians who had nothing to do with pharao's decisions. Well... god's decisions actually, since he intervened in pharaoh's free will to force him to disobey....
etc etc etc....


I could go on for quite a while, actually.

No, i requested that you be specific and provide references. You’ve done neither.

 

[JesusKnowsYou]

You are running away from the reality of what you think
is groovy.

But you're the one running away from your initial examples.

Why are you unwilling to discuss them in detail?

Are you using vagueness as a weapon? Shield?

Either way it's cowardice.

 

[sojourner]

God hates the idea of His children engaging in sexual relations outside of marriage.

With that in mind, do you think He would want an unmarried couple to have protected sex or not?

God works with us. He wants to minimize harm.

If we are unwilling to keep His commandments for any reason - even societal norms - then He will still do what He can to help us minimize harm.

The world that ancient Israel was a part of was one of slavery. God taught them how best to live in that world while minimizing harm.

Homosexuality was a sin that spread like wildfire among ancient peoples and led to many worse sins.

Leaving this world is not the worst thing that can happen to us.

I call BS. You’re not helping.