What’s your main reason for being a theist or an atheist?

[FooYang]

Which part do you disagree with, if any?

You speak with such redundancy and not much comprehension or detail, I think it's that I have my hopes up too high for these topics and few people deliver on their promises.

That doesn't make sense to me. Upto those who claim to believe in a god, to define that god.
And obviously, you are aware, I hope, that we could ask 10 theists of varrying religions (in some cases, even the same religion) to define the god they believe in, and have it result in 10 different definitions, right?

This itself is barely even a criticism of the topic. Your complaint here applies to everything we experience in life. Get five random people reading even yours or my post alone, and you've get a variety of completely different impressions and understandings of the same thing.
This is no different with art, to sex, to the impressions we get about all manner of empirically observed things.

YOU (theists) are the one who believes in one or more gods. YOU should therefor be the one to
1. define what you believe to be real
2. explain how it can be tested
3. present the evidence.

I can't help but sense a strong urgency for you to do everything here but answer my question.

Haaa, I see. You're one of those people who don't understand what atheism or the null hypothesis is.

That would be true agnosticism, which would certainly not be a thing someone even identifies with. You seem to lack perhaps the self awareness of the extent your position reflects back on everything you believe. You may just not be smart enough to realize it but your position does assume it's own epistemology and ontology, aside from the cultural fact that the word "Atheism" itself is not in any way a neutral term that does have baggage.

In god, there's nothing in my atheism to be "correct" about, since there aren't any claims associated with it.

Well then..

 

[FooYang]

You're begging the question again. You can't argue for "reality" and "god" being synonymous by assuming they are synonymous

I'm not gonna hold a gun to your head. However using the word "Reality" is very dangerous for you if you're going to profess belief in the opposite. I hope you realize this at the least and we can leave it there

and saying how ridiculous your assumption makes other people's beliefs sound.

This is my problem with you Atheists perverting semantics, as well as appealing to ridicule irrelevant ideas (like bigfoot) to the subject at hand.
I really wish there was a comprehension-meter for you kind of guys, it'd help to work out exactly what areas you struggle with in understanding the nature of different topics and their intersections.

 

[ratiocinator]

However using the word "Reality" is very dangerous for you if you're going to profess belief in the opposite.

I'm not professing belief in the opposite.

This is my problem with you Atheists perverting semantics, as well as appealing to ridicule irrelevant ideas (like bigfoot) to the subject at hand.

Us perverting semantics! That's amusing. The words "god" and "reality" are simply not synonymous in general usage (just look in a dictionary) and you haven't been able to produce a coherent argument as to why anybody should accept that they are.

Other evidence-lacking ideas (such as bigfoot) are relevant for the very reason that they are evidence-lacking, like the various claims for all the various god-ideas.

 

[Dawnofhope]

With respect to gods and god-claims? An atheist has no beliefs-- unless he or she is among the small group who believes they are certain there are no gods.

Of course atheists have beliefs. Belief is not conditional on certainty.

Belief without evidence isn't a rational pathway to understanding or getting at the truth.

Much of what we believe doesn’t require evidence. I see my friend standing in front of me. I know in an instant it’s him. I recognise his appearance, manner and voice without rationalising. There is of course an abundance of evidence that it’s him and not another. However I don’t need to go through the process of weighing up any of the evidence to determine the truth or otherwise in determining who is in my presence.

If you accept a claim without evidence? Then you can also believe that the universe was created by pixies who also steal socks-- but only one at a time. Indeed: Once you believe in Universe Creating, Sock-Stealing Pixies? You also believe you have lots and lots of "evidence"... who has not lost a single sock here and there?

Same deal as above. There is evidence and proof for the existence of God just as there is to establish it’s my friend who stands before me. However I no longer need to go through the process of considering such evidence. What would be the point?

 

[Dawnofhope]

Confirmation bias. They are carefully taught to believe in god, when their brains are simple, and they lack the critical skills to require evidence first. This acceptance in the god-idea becomes deeply ingrained-- indeed-- so deep, it forms a part of their self-identity. Such that when missing? They suffer distress...

But once the belief is deeply rooted? They see everything as biased through that belief.

Just as someone who believes in Universe Creating Pixies who steals single socks? Will see "evidence" for these beings every time a sock comes up missing: "Well. The Pixies got another sock. Praise Be To the Pixies!"

I suppose you need a narrative to explain why so many people believe in God or gods. Your narrative doesn’t describe my experience in coming to a belief in God or those I know who are Theistic. My biggest concern is it creates an us and them divide between theists and atheists.

 

[Dawnofhope]

That's a rather silly statement. Please share your 'evidence' for your lack of belief in magical pixies.

We all have God or gods we don’t believe in. I’ve stated my reasons for believing in the God of Abraham. My reasons may or may not be acceptable. Where is the messenger who provided testimony to the magical pixies? What did he do to convince his contemporaries of his claim? What record did he leave for future generations to follow? Did a community arise in his name to champion his cause and even lay down his life if required?

 

[ChristineM]

Thanks, I edited that post.
God magic is nothing other than what has been ordained by God.
There is nothing we can do about it.

And that makes it all perfect

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Thanks for sharing your experiences. It sounds dreadful beyond comprehension and I’m sorry it happened to you. Coercion simply doesn’t work in religion. Even Muhammad acknowledges this in the Quran.

My experience of atheism was a personal choice. Atheism made the most sense to me and I embraced it. No one coerced me.

Although I don’t believe in atheism I do have respect for the intellectual aspects of such beliefs and those who hold such beliefs. Some of my best friends are atheists.

I don't think any coercion on her part was intentional. It was just that she really was worried for my soul, and as her husband, I cared about the fact that she was unhappy.

How’s it going with restoring respect for religious beliefs and theism?

Not well, honestly.

I've definitely gotten better on respect for religious people, but the way I've done that is by recognizing how small a role religious beliefs play in most people's decision-making. The beliefs themselves still strike me as ridiculous, generally.

Edit: and the more I delve into a religion, the less respect I tend to have for it.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I don't think any coercion on her part was intentional. It was just that she really was worried for my soul, and as her husband, I cared about the fact that she was unhappy.

It’s not hard to appreciate the difficulties here. My wife had a similar experience with her flat mate before we married. They had been close friends then her flat mate converted to a rather fundamentalist version of Christianity and started obsessing about how her non Christian friends were all going to hell. They went from being best friends to progressively more distant. The nail in the coffin of their friendship was her marrying a Baha’i (non-Christian). I’ve had a lot of challenges from Christian fundamentals over the years.

Not well, honestly.

I've definitely gotten better on respect for religious people, but the way I've done that is by recognizing how small a role religious beliefs play in most people's decision-making. The beliefs themselves still strike me as ridiculous, generally.

Religion can adapt to stay relevant or become entrenched in ideology that has outlived its usefulness. I personally believe no religion is better than the wrong religion.

Edit: and the more I delve into a religion, the less respect I tend to have for it.

That’s good to know for you. Why bother exploring religion at all? Sounds like there’s much better things to be focused on at this time in your life.

Is your current partner a Christian?

 

[Vinayaka]

What is wrong with civilised discussion and sharing about religion? It’s the whole mission of this forum after all.

As a community of diverse cultural and religious backgrounds, our aim is to provide a civil environment, informative, respectful and welcoming where people of diverse beliefs can discuss, compare and debate religion while engaging in fellowship with one another.

RF Rules

Nothing wrong at all. I personally am not interested. I never said once that others, who enjoy it, shouldn't be. Those who want to argue about it are certainly free to. I won't be joining in. Lots of people don't participate in lots of topics.

 

[Shad]

We all believe what we do for some reason. I’m a theist and believe in the God of Abraham. That God I believe is concerned for humanity and for each one of us. Out of His love for us all He’s guided us through His Great Educators such as Christ, Muhammad, the Buddha and Krishna to name a few. What I believe makes perfect sense to me but I can see merit in arguments that would reject such a view. I believe in God because:
1/ It seems rational
2/ It resonates with my experience in life
3/ It works practically.

An atheist could use exactly the same argument of course. I tried atheism for about a year but it was the worst year of my life. Some atheists would probably say the same about their experiences of theism. So I can see how atheism makes sense. It just doesn’t work for me.

Why do you believe what you do? We’re in the religious debates section so feel free to debate. I might too...who knows!? I don’t really like atheist verses theist debates. This could be s first. Let’s see how we go.

I have not found convincing evidence for God let alone a specific religion. I look at religion as a failed attempt(s) to explain the world around us.

 

[ChristineM]

As long as you follow the rules of the forum why not? However, attributing theistic belief to a weakness of character takes Theism vs atheism exchanges take away from constructive discussion and instead polarises people.

That's just the point i really dont think i could follow RF rules which is why i held back. When one has been treated badly by theism barriers are sure to be erected. I have spent much time researching why [some] theist can be the way they are and still claim god is on their side!

I have a much greater reverence for the richness and diversity of thought with the traditions of Western philosophy.

Philosophy does nothing to me, we can all think. Thought does not mean reality.

Theists often recognise the rationale mind can never fully comprehend God. That is why arguments around semantics are often frustrating for both parties.

Doesn't seem that way to me, many imply they know the mind of their god and speak for him/her/it. Funny enough that mind always agrees with them.

 

[sealchan]

We all believe what we do for some reason. I’m a theist and believe in the God of Abraham. That God I believe is concerned for humanity and for each one of us. Out of His love for us all He’s guided us through His Great Educators such as Christ, Muhammad, the Buddha and Krishna to name a few. What I believe makes perfect sense to me but I can see merit in arguments that would reject such a view. I believe in God because:
1/ It seems rational
2/ It resonates with my experience in life
3/ It works practically.

An atheist could use exactly the same argument of course. I tried atheism for about a year but it was the worst year of my life. Some atheists would probably say the same about their experiences of theism. So I can see how atheism makes sense. It just doesn’t work for me.

Why do you believe what you do? We’re in the religious debates section so feel free to debate. I might too...who knows!? I don’t really like atheist verses theist debates. This could be s first. Let’s see how we go.

I find myself at the cusp between atheism and theism. I see God as a function of the psyche but is an objective reality in that everyone is subject to having a God experience.

I identify as a Christian because of my own God experiences, but I do not, therefore, drink the Kool-aid of literalistic belief. But i will participate in conversations with literalists in a friendly way by taking everything said metaphorically or as one would if one were immersed in an author's work discussing its literary value.

I would say that Joseph Campbell and Carl Jung have spoken the most intelligently about the role of religion, faith and spirituality and have been an essential bridge for me between my love of science and my need for faith.

 

[crossfire]

Would you explain what you mean please?

What part don't you understand?

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

That’s not been my experience with either atheists or theists. Integrity or lack there of seems distributed across the whole spectrum of beliefs. However I asked for participants to share their reasons for their beliefs so I appreciate you have done just. This thread is more of a platform for people to share their beliefs and experiences, not so much to debate Theism vs atheism. Having said that, it’s in the religious debates section so participants are free to debate.

When I said "this is true," I certainly meant that it is true for me. That this is the true reason I am an atheist.

And it stands, regardless your experience to the contrary, or how you want to spread around the blame for intellectual failings. The vast majority of statements made with confidence in knowledge for which there should be NO CONFIDENCE (either because the evidence is lacking, or the knowledge is based solely on personal revelation, or the subject matter at hand is known to be unknowable) are made by theists. That is exactly the type of failure to maintain intellectual integrity that I am talking about. An atheist will have reality-based, inter-subjectively verifiable evidence for their claims far more often than a theist, and an atheist will far more often be willing to qualify their statements with "My opinion is..." or "Maybe..." - theists being far less willing to admit that any part of their chosen religious narrative is basically just their opinion. And this is firstly just based on the nature of the subject-matter being asserted - a realm of objects and items for which it is widely known there IS NO RELIABLE EVIDENCE THAT CAN BE MUTUALLY SHARED, and for which admitting that something within the belief-set is "opinion" is opening the belief-set up to scrutiny and attempts to assess the truth of claims.

 

[sealchan]

My definition of God is that which is identified as existent and which can unconsciously support the existence of our subjective selves. That is, the very notion of God is wrapped up in the notion that we are conscious, or that we have a soul or that we exist as an agent in reality with free will.

The trick is that belief in the divine is psychologically useful. It is also easy to misunderstand because it is wrapped up in our instinctual fear of death and need, therefore, to feel we have some intrinsic quality that protects us against the reality of death.

Experience indicates that death is an end to our existence and experience of reality although reality continues on. God is that wish for our own persistence against that evidence. Fulfilling that wish and doing so without creating a drag on our species ability to actually get better at living and living longer is the art of what religion should be.

 

[Aupmanyav]

You believe matter/energy is God, you're a Pantheist. There isn't much else to it.

You are forcing your view on me. Matter/Energy is Matter/Energy, and not God. Your insistence on reading my view in your way is .. disingenuous.
'lacking in frankness, candor, or sincerity; falsely or hypocritical' - Dictionary.com
Synonyms: deceitful, dishonest, false, unfair.

I suppose you need a narrative to explain why so many people believe in God or gods.

Because they are weak in knees. They cannot stand without a crutch. They cannot stand the idea of non-existence at death, the death of their ego and clutch at straws.

Where is the messenger who provided testimony to the magical pixies?

Ah, your messenger (manifestation) provided the evidence of a magical pixie.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

God does not require magic since God does not have any needs.
Therefore God is real.

Nope. You cannot have "god" without invoking "magic". That's rather how god's have to work-- by magic. They magically *poof* things into being, or magically *poof* huge tracts of ... water into being, or magically *poof* their Special Favorite Spokes-Weenies.

It's Magic all the way down, with gods....

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Religion can adapt to stay relevant or become entrenched in ideology that has outlived its usefulness. I personally believe no religion is better than the wrong religion.

OTOH, a religion that's supposedly revealed by God can't adapt with the times, because doing this would be like admitting that "God" got things wrong or failed to anticipate what would happen.

The only exception I see to this is the Mormon approach, where the leader can effectively proclaim new "revelations" as he sees fit.

That’s good to know for you. Why bother exploring religion at all? Sounds like there’s much better things to be focused on at this time in your life.

Sometimes I wonder that myself.

Honestly, I'd rather not deal with it, but:

- it's an interesting phenomenon with a major impact. I feel like it would be foolish to ignore it.
- it imposes itself on me and issues I care about quite a bit, especially in politics.
- it ends up coming up in other things. I can't read or listen to anything about history without religion coming up as a factor. Heck - even my History of English podcast is full of stuff about the influence of monks and monasteries on written English.
- I don't really like feeling contempt for something that's such a major part of many people's lives.

I'm not sure what to do about that last point, though, since engaging with religion tends to increase my level of contempt for it, while writing it off and ignoring it feels like surrendering to contempt.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

God does not require magic since God does not have any needs.
Therefore God is real.

Then .... WHY did this No-Needs, Perfect Being .... suddenly decide he needed people? And he magically *poofed* them into being?

WHY? If he did not have any needs? He would never have created humans in the first place!

Your contradiction proves gods are not real.