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What is the Trinity?

SA Huguenot

Well-Known Member
From the Ante-Nicene Fathers to NicaeaEdit
While the developed doctrine of the Trinity is not explicit in the books that constitute the New Testament, it was first formulated as early Christians attempted to understand the relationship between Jesus and God in their scriptural documents and prior traditions.[8] The New Testament possesses a "triadic" understanding of God[6] and contains a number of Trinitarian formulas.[7] The Ante-Nicene Fathers asserted Christ's deity and spoke of "Father, Son and Holy Spirit", even though their language is not that of the traditional doctrine as formalized in the fourth century. Trinitarians view these as elements of the codified doctrine. An early Trinitarian formula appears towards the end of the first century, where Clement of Rome rhetorically asks in his epistle as to why corruption exists among some in the Christian community; "Do we not have one God, and one Christ, and one gracious Spirit that has been poured out upon us, and one calling in Christ?"[13] Ignatius of Antioch provides early support for the Trinity around 110, exhorting obedience to "Christ, and to the Father, and to the Spirit".[14] The pseudonymous Ascension of Isaiah, written sometime between the end of the first century and the beginning of the third century, possesses a "proto-trinitarian" view, such as in its narrative of how the inhabitants of the sixth heaven sing praises to "the primal Father and his Beloved Christ, and the Holy Spirit".[15] Justin Martyr (AD 100–c. 165) also writes, "in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit".[16] The first of the early church fathers to be recorded using the word "Trinity" was Theophilus of Antioch writing in the late 2nd century. He defines the Trinity as God, His Word (Logos) and His Wisdom (Sophia)[17] in the context of a discussion of the first three days of creation, following the early Christian practice of identifying the Holy Spirit as the Wisdom of God.[18] The first defense of the doctrine of the Trinity was in the early 3rd century by the early church father Tertullian. He explicitly defined the Trinity as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and defended his theology against "Praxeas",[19] though he noted that the majority of the believers in his day found issue with his doctrine.[20] St. Justin and Clement of Alexandria used the Trinity in their doxologies and St. Basil likewise, in the evening lighting of lamps.[21] Origen of Alexandria (AD 185-c. 253) has often been interpreted as Subordinationist, but some modern researchers have argued that Origen might have actually been anti-Subordinationist.[22][23]
Thank you for your exert.
It actually proves my point 100%
The Word "Trinity was never found in the Bible, but coined in the 4th century as an explanation of the Triune God because of the "Scriptual documents", "the NT poses an Triadic understanding of God", and the Ante Nicean fathers asserted the Diety of Jesus.
See for yourself.
MJFlores said:
From the Ante-Nicene Fathers to Nicaea
While the developed doctrine of the Trinity is not explicit in the books that constitute the New Testament, it was first formulated as early Christians attempted to understand the relationship between Jesus and God in their scriptural documents and prior traditions.[8] The New Testament possesses a "triadic" understanding of God[6] and contains a number of Trinitarian formulas.[7] The Ante-Nicene Fathers asserted Christ's deity and spoke of "Father, Son and Holy Spirit", even though their language is not that of the traditional doctrine as formalized in the fourth century.
And follow this up with the fact that your own quote tells us that in not even 50 years after Paul, still in the lifetime of John, Christians understood the Trinity.
MJFlores said:
An early Trinitarian formula appears towards the end of the first century, where Clement of Rome rhetorically asks in his epistle as to why corruption exists among some in the Christian community; "Do we not have one God, and one Christ, and one gracious Spirit that has been poured out upon us, and one calling in Christ?"[13] Ignatius of Antioch provides early support for the Trinity around 110, exhorting obedience to "Christ, and to the Father, and to the Spirit".

Read your quote and you will see that the first time Christians spoke abd debated the Trinity, was with the advent of Gnostisizm who denied the Divinity of Jesus.
This is all evidence that the first Christians, living with the Apostles and Disciples of Jesus, believed in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as 3 divine persons, and one God,
Sorry, you are actually assisting me against your own argument. about
 

SA Huguenot

Well-Known Member
Tony Stark has been known to operate a suit while he isn't in it. So a suit can work while Tony is in his officer.
Therefore the suit is a string puppet and not Tony himself.
If the Pinochio became alive, he is not Gipetto anymore.
Jesus isnot a Puppet, but the Word of YHWH.
I like your thinking, you make me to double think my mind.
 

SA Huguenot

Well-Known Member
It comes from the Rig Vega, which is far older than that.
Why are you telling a lie?
Trimurti | Hinduism
The Trimurti was never found in the Rig veda.
It's earliest date , which by the way does not describe a Trinity, is without any formulation dated to 400AD.
Guys, why this continious hammering on something that is clearly non existant.
The religious Trimurti that is comparable to the Trinity dates from 800 AD!
There is no relation to Shiva, Brama and Visny with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
The only way Christians could have coppied the Trimurti from the Indian religions, is if they had a time travelling machine to have travelled ahead 800 years, learned about Hinduism and Buddism, then travelled back to formulate the Trinity totally different from the Trimurti.
Do you see the ridicilous accusations and declarations you are making?
 

SA Huguenot

Well-Known Member
Just for the record, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints call the trinity the God Head and here are their basic beliefs:

Godhead
My intend was to show the post of 28 verses from the LDS that God is one, as non foundational to the person who posted it to me.
There are other verses the LDS uses to acknoledge the Trinity.
My only problem with the LDS is that they believe the Father had a father, Jesus became God, and LDS will also become Gods, and will populate planets and will be worshipped as I worship Jesus.
Therefore, the LDS version of God are not Biblical, but formulated by "prophecies" from their president prophet, who to me are all false prophets.
 

SA Huguenot

Well-Known Member
The word TRINITY could not be found in any Bible version
However, TRINITY is the character played by Kate Moss in the Matrix

giphy.gif


But seriously, the word TRINITY was coined by Tertullian (/tərˈtʌliən/; full name Quintus Septimius Florens Tertullianus; c. 155 – c. 240 AD)

Tertullian - Wikipedia

basic-christian-trinitarian-principles-falsehood-exposed-17-728.jpg


200 AD _ the last Apostle who died was John at 100 AD
So it is obvious that false doctrines seeped in the first church of Christ.

Fast forward to 325 AD the Nicaea Council voted that Christ is God
First Council of Nicaea - Wikipedia
What were they thinking? Do they think that Christianity is a game show like

View attachment 30810

That you can vote somebody as God? Well that is what exactly happen in 325 AD.
But wait there is more, in 381 AD, 56 years later, they voted the HS as God!
First Council of Constantinople - Wikipedia

So the Trinity is not based in the Bible but established through the vote of the Council bishops
Oh by the way, these bishops are long dead
View attachment 30811

And now we see people clinging to a man made doctrine because they follow the Trinity blindly.
They could not understand why 1 + 1+ 1 = 1
They just follow without question because the truth is not really important to them.
And, did anyone tell you that the Word "Trinity" is in the Bible?
Never, but we did tell you that Jesus, the Father, and the HS is God, and they are one, did I not?
So whats your argument?
Nothing.
 

SA Huguenot

Well-Known Member
I think many people fail to see the wisdom of many LDS beliefs.
I would like to get one single factual "Wisdom" from the Book of Mormon.
So far everything therein is inacurate.
American, south and north, Archaeology has proven everything but the Book of Mormon.
It is describing events that no one have ever proven.
Sheep, horses, cows, iron, wagons (wheels), cotton, and hundreds more items described that was never found in the Americas.
the Book of Mormon is one big hoax
 

SA Huguenot

Well-Known Member
1. God

2. The Prophets, Educators, Avatars, Buddhas

3. Mankind

1. God is One without peer

2. The Prophets and Educators such as Buddha, Krishna, Moses, Muhammad, Christ are sent by God to educate humanity.

3. As humanity is unable to contact God directly there is need for an Intermediary. The Prophets are the Links between God and mankind.

In order for us to receive guidance and counsel from God we needed someone to come in human form. So the Orophets which I believe are pre existent, took human form.

I believe this simple concept later degenerated into superstitious interpretations and doctrines and became known as the trinity.
great that you would say that.
Please go and read Deuteronium 18: 18 to 22 and you will find a very solid and logical test to establish if these people sent by God are truely representing God.
Simple,
Ask them to fortell the future, in the short term to test them, and if they cant give such a prophecy, kill him.
Now, Muhammad, Joseph Smith, and all these guys such as David Coresh, Jim Jones, and TV evangelists would be executed.
If Joseph Smith and Muhammad lived in 1400BC, they would have been stoned alive for their lies.
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
Now we are getting somewhere!
So, in your 4 points, in point 2 you say, Jesus was God, but he lost his divinity because He became a Man?
Therefore, you agree that Jesus was God with the Father in the beginning, and Jesus created everything?
if it was not for Jesus, nothing would have existed?

If we are to superimpose the Word to Jesus Christ with its pronouns on John 1:1-4
I do not say this but rather the result of the superimposition.
Jesus Christ never lost his deity because he was never been God on the first place.
Jesus Christ is the Son of God not another God.

The more sensible is the Logos which is the Word which is also the plan about Jesus Christ
not Jesus Christ per se.
Jesus Christ became Jesus Christ after the virgin birth of Mary and not before that.

upload_2019-7-10_16-28-35.jpeg


No one can find the name Jesus Christ in the Old Testament but the prophecies about him.
The Lord Jesus Christ never existed before his birth but what existed is
THE PLAN ABOUT JESUS CHRIST or what Moffat Bible would term the Logos and other contemporary bibles would term the Word.

In Genesis this is written:

Genesis 3:15 New International Version (NIV)
And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.”

This was declared by God to Satan and this pertains to JESUS CHRIST and the scene was when God banished the first humans from the Garden of Eden.

1192d59c5ff8f58bfdf972b5076fd437--serpents-son-of-god.jpg


Was JESUS CHRIST existing during those times? No he was not. That is why the Lord God said "the woman's offspring" and a future action "he will crush your head" or defeat Satan. In other words God was saying to Satan that a man / human born of a woman will defeat Satan and what he could manage is to strike his heel - not that fatal.

Jesus Christ wasn't conscious or existent before the creation of the world. However, the plan about Jesus Christ is always with God. Every creature on earth was created FOR JESUS CHRIST, every government likewise and this can be read on:

Colossians 1:15-16 New International Version (NIV)
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

Jesus Christ is the image of the invisible God
God is invisible - cannot be seen
Can anyone see something that cannot be seen like - oxygen? how about heat? or how about nitrogen?
How does it look like?
So what is the image of the invisible God?
H O L Y - God is holy and this is what Jesus Christ showed his Father

Jesus Christ is the firstborn over all creation
Before any creation was done by God
His plan about Jesus Christ is always with him
Everything was created because of Jesus Christ - for and through Christ

upload_2019-7-10_16-48-4.jpeg


Is Jesus Christ, God? Definitely and absolutely NOT.
Jesus Christ preached who is God and he said this:

John 4:21-24 New King James Version (NKJV)
Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

What does Jesus Christ mean about being a spirit?

Luke 24:36-39 New King James Version (NKJV)
Now as they said these things, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and said to them, “Peace to you.” But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit. And He said to them, “Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”

images


Jesus Christ showed his wounds, his flesh and bones to his disciples to show that he is not a spirit.
He is not God.
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
Thank you for your exert.
It actually proves my point 100%
The Word "Trinity was never found in the Bible, but coined in the 4th century as an explanation of the Triune God because of the "Scriptual documents", "the NT poses an Triadic understanding of God", and the Ante Nicean fathers asserted the Diety of Jesus.
See for yourself.

And follow this up with the fact that your own quote tells us that in not even 50 years after Paul, still in the lifetime of John, Christians understood the Trinity.


Read your quote and you will see that the first time Christians spoke abd debated the Trinity, was with the advent of Gnostisizm who denied the Divinity of Jesus.
This is all evidence that the first Christians, living with the Apostles and Disciples of Jesus, believed in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as 3 divine persons, and one God,
Sorry, you are actually assisting me against your own argument. about

If the Trinity is scriptural, then why won't I accept it?
But the thing is it is NOT.

Showing the views of other theologians does not mean I am supporting the Trinity concept.
It is just a concept, a weird one to begin with.
It is hard to understand like someone suffering from a split personality disorder

images


and the thing is a lot of people over the centuries had been had with this doctrine.
A doctrine concocted in Nicaea which is now where?
In Turkey - which is an Islamic country.

Is it scriptural?

upload_2019-7-10_17-7-21.jpeg


I don't think so. Trinity fails in every respect.
It was merely voted upon in 325 AD and then in 381 AD
In Nicaea and Constantinople respectively
Jesus Christ became god on 325 AD
HS became god on 381 AD
care of the 300 dead bishops and their pagan Roman Emperors

upload_2019-7-10_17-13-7.jpeg


And this is what we are going to rely our salvation upon?
What happened to the truth?
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
And, did anyone tell you that the Word "Trinity" is in the Bible?
Never, but we did tell you that Jesus, the Father, and the HS is God, and they are one, did I not?
So whats your argument?
Nothing.

images


Because it is MAN MADE - 325 A.D.

Matthew 15:9 New King James Version (NKJV)
And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”



upload_2019-7-10_18-0-57.jpeg
 

Unguru

I am a Sikh nice to meet you
There is no relation to Shiva, Brama and Visny with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Correct, because the "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" have nothing to do with God, just the political ideology of Christianity which is anti-spiritual.
 

Unguru

I am a Sikh nice to meet you
Ask them to fortell the future, in the short term to test them, and if they cant give such a prophecy, kill him.
Now, Muhammad, Joseph Smith, and all these guys such as David Coresh, Jim Jones, and TV evangelists would be executed.
If Joseph Smith and Muhammad lived in 1400BC, they would have been stoned alive for their lies.

Don't forget to add Adam, Abraham, Moses and Jesus to that list.
 

SA Huguenot

Well-Known Member
I saw the Debate of james White with Joe Ventilacion from your chirch "Iglesia ni Cristo", and i found this summary from this debate on exactly what we were talking about.
"The Word was God".
Argument against the Trinity? Joe Ventilacion on Christ not Θεόν?
Dr White is perhaps the foremost Greek manuscript scholar I know of in the Apologetic world, and in his opinion your church are twisting the meaning of John 1:1 to 16 to such an extend that you catch yourself up in the true descriptions, just as I caught you failing to explain how your "Plan of Christ" somehow was God.
I do think your opinion is somehow built on very few scriptual evidence and more upon bias against the divinity of Jesus.
 

Unguru

I am a Sikh nice to meet you
Not THE Father, but My Father.
Big difference when the father is God THE Father, and when MY Father is a specific pointing to Jesus the Son of God, and the Father HIS Father.

There's no difference, it's polytheistic paganism either way
 
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