Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Are you disagreeing with what I said in the OP? Are you denying that there is any story in Christianity about self-renunciation and learning to love, trust and follow a master teacher?Sounds to me like we're talking about Discipleship when we mention "Masters". Discipleship is a view that works very well in people's minds, but leads to a lot of bad things in reality. It's probably why less Christian churches focus on Discipleship now.
I agree with the principles you refer to.Note: I‘m not trying to reconcile belief systems. I’m not trying to find common ground between them. I’m opposed to that.
I think that in all the religions that have been associated with thriving civilizations, there is a story that the best life a person can live, for their own benefit and for the benefit of all people and of society, is in self-renunciation and learning to love, trust and follow a master teacher. Is there anyone else here who sees that?
Are you disagreeing with what I said in the OP? Are you denying that there is any story in Christianity about self-renunciation and learning to love, trust and follow a master teacher?
Are you disagreeing with what I said? Are you denying that all those religions tell that story?
“Taoism does” what? Tells that story; or denies that all those religions tell that story?Taoism does.
It doesn't have it. it is for the most part absent. Taoism lacks a narrative.“Taoism does” what? Tells that story; or denies that all those religions tell that story?
I see it.I think that in all the religions that have been associated with thriving civilizations, there is a story that the best life a person can live, for their own benefit and for the benefit of all people and of society, is in self-renunciation and learning to love, trust and follow a master teacher. Is there anyone else here who sees that?
Is there anyone else here who sees that?
...Ven. Ananda said to the Blessed One, "This is half of the holy life, lord: admirable friendship, admirable companionship, admirable camaraderie."[1]
"Don't say that, Ananda. Don't say that. Admirable friendship, admirable companionship, admirable camaraderie is actually the whole of the holy life. When a monk has admirable people as friends, companions, & comrades, he can be expected to develop & pursue the noble eightfold path.
"And how does a monk who has admirable people as friends, companions, & comrades, develop & pursue the noble eightfold path? There is the case where a monk develops right view dependent on seclusion, dependent on dispassion, dependent on cessation, resulting in relinquishment. He develops right resolve... right speech... right action... right livelihood... right effort... right mindfulness... right concentration dependent on seclusion, dependent on dispassion, dependent on cessation, resulting in relinquishment. This is how a monk who has admirable people as friends, companions, & colleagues, develops & pursues the noble eightfold path.The Blessed One said, "If wanderers who are members of other sects should ask you, 'What, friend, are the prerequisites for the development of the wings to self-awakening?' you should answer, 'There is the case where a monk has admirable friends, admirable companions, admirable comrades. This is the first prerequisite for the development of the wings to self-awakening.
...
In some sects, at some levels, it most certainly is seen as necessary. But you're right, not in Hinduism as a whole.The master teacher part is not considered necessary in Hinduism.
Thank you.I agree with the principles you refer to.
I wouldn't use the word love ─ I try to act decently all the time towards people I don't love in the sense I understand the word. Indeed, I may not particularly respect some of them.
And I wouldn't say 'follow a master' ─ I'd say, be guided as you find helpful, don't stop learning, but you're responsible for yourself.
Still, with ordinary luck the results would have a lot in common.
Do you have any reason for thinking that there have not always been priests in Taoism, and some stories to explain why, and some stories about where the words of wisdom came from?It doesn't have it. it is for the most part absent. Taoism lacks a narrative.
Apart from Taoism, do you know of any religion that has been associated with a thriving civilization, that does not include any story like the one I described in the OP?
Note: I‘m not trying to reconcile belief systems. I’m not trying to find common ground between them. I’m opposed to that.
I think that in all the religions that have been associated with thriving civilizations, there is a story that the best life a person can live, for their own benefit and for the benefit of all people and of society, is in self-renunciation and learning to love, trust and follow a master teacher. Is there anyone else here who sees that?
Because pablum sometimes taste sweet and is easy to digestThat is where so many get led astray, by blindly following the lies of MAN.
Why does everyone want someone to spoon feed them sweet sounding lies about some "god" (guess) construct?
There is no overarching narrative within Taoism, just different schools of thought. Some have myths and stories, some do not. There is no ORTHODOX Taoism. Lao Tzu isn't even that important has some have been lead to believe, he was a good poet in my book, comparing Lao Tzu to Chuang Tzu would be futile since both had their own points of view. I won't put one above the other even if they seemingly disagree on some points. We all have different points of view.@The Reverend Bob ((Maybe I didn’t make my question clear enough. Are you denying that there is any story anywhere in Taoism, about self-renunciation and following a master, as a way to live the best life we can, to bring out the best possibilities for ourselves, for others, and for society?))
Note: I‘m not trying to reconcile belief systems. I’m not trying to find common ground between them. I’m opposed to that.
I think that in all the religions that have been associated with thriving civilizations, there is a story that the best life a person can live, for their own benefit and for the benefit of all people and of society, is in self-renunciation and learning to love, trust and follow a master teacher. Is there anyone else here who sees that?
The master teacher part is not considered necessary in Hinduism.
A few thoughts popped up thinking about this:In some sects, at some levels, it most certainly is seen as necessary. But you're right, not in Hinduism as a whole.
No I just meant that some sects and sampradaya function through the lineage, which means a living Satguru, (I take this word as the equivalent of Master Teacher, but it may well be a poor translation) considered 99.9% necessary, at the end of the yoga stage, just before nirvikalpa samadhi.A few thoughts popped up thinking about this:
Do you mean with this "there is not always the physical (human being) master teacher needed"?
In Hinduism I came across: a)Inside Teacher + b)Outside Teacher
Outside Teacher can be so many: deity, guru(man, woman), nature, sun, moon, earth, nature, God, Shiva, Buddha etc
Or do you mean "And finally you have to kill the Buddha (master teacher)", so ultimately "master teacher" is also an illusion?
Or ....
Note: I‘m not trying to reconcile belief systems. I’m not trying to find common ground between them. I’m opposed to that.
I think that in all the religions that have been associated with thriving civilizations, there is a story that the best life a person can live, for their own benefit and for the benefit of all people and of society, is in self-renunciation and learning to love, trust and follow a master teacher. Is there anyone else here who sees that?